Witch not Wiccan

Originally Posted by norseman

Various Neolithic monuments in Britain and Northern Europe in general. Also votive objects [shamanic] being dredged from the bottom of the North Sea which was formed by the submersion of the plain at the end of the last Ice Age around 6000 BC.

If you're going to include the magickal systems of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Indus Valley as witchcraft then I can't argue, but the actual formation of the Cult of the Witch is from Northern Italy, back to Roman times, back to Greek times.

The word Shaman is another word that didn't come into formation until more recently.

Perhaps we are just throwing semantic back and forth?

[norseman]

Hi Animus !

"If the discovery of such objects implied the practice of what people call witch-craft nowadays, then nearly all religions would be forms of a witch cult"

Been thinking about this and I think you could be right even if you did speak in jest.
"Witch" was generally used against anyone who did not follow the accepted religious dogma of the day. In Europe/N.America etc, that means christianity. So, it was a label used to justify persecution.
This got me thinking - every religion uses rituals and incantations to approach their deity/deities - a description that fits the traditional view of Witchcraft surely.
With an open mind, think on this. A religion which consumes the flesh and blood of it's deity in both symbolic and, to some sects, real terms [ I believe the description is Substantiation.]. In their holy places, they use a strict form of words in the "spells" and have many carved images and idols, and a formal priesthood. High Witchcraft indeed !
You only need look at any religious ceremony with an unfriendly eye and it looks like witchcraft.
This is why I prefer to use Witch Craft, instead of Witchcraft and, truth be known, I prefer to drop the "witch" entirely and just call it The Craft [a modern word probably never used in the long-gone past]

What do you think ?

[norseman]

"The word Shaman is another word that didn't come into formation until more recently."

Etu, I think we use the word to describe a function rather than a job title. We do know that both Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon Hunter-Gatherers had wise men/women/healers/etc/etc. So we use "shaman" to describe what they did - invoke local spirits etc to ensure good hunting and successful harvests [later]. So, we probably are dabbling in semantics for want of a better word
Same argument applies to "witches" much, much earlier than Greek/Roman cultures - are we guilty of applying a modern definition to an ancient function ?

I have read Anton's teaching and many left handed beliefs. Look at it this way. Christianity has a "Bible" Church of Satan has a "Bible" both dietys yewah and Satan was biblical even though Satanist do not believe in Satan. But I dont think there would have been a Church of Satan without there being a Christian church first.

Originally Posted by Medium_Laura

a witch practices magick but does not adhere to the Rede of Wicca.

Så you se a magician and a witch is the same? Do you se forexample Aleister Crowley as a witch? I have to disagree. In my opinion is a witch a person who practice witchcraft. Witchcraft is a craft you only can learn in a coven. Why i think that is because there is no evidens about witchcults before Gerald Gardner. Hes coven was the first group who call themself witches.

Originally Posted by norseman

OK but don't forget "witch" is a fairly recent invention. Go back to the original - Craft of the Wise, or Cunning Craft, or just Craft. There was a neolithic shamanic line in Northern Europe. The votive objects from the North Sea plain are wide-spread and the Dutch trawlers have found hundreds of thousands of these objects which is a lot different to a few objects found in wells and bogs.

Regarding a sub-forum, I would be OK if this forum was just part of the Pagan forum.

Yes, witches didn't like having to have a "force" to answer to. So therefore they have no deity but still do spellwork etc. It's like being Christian without Christ. Kinda odd in my opinion. Spells are like prayers... So if you are doing spells with no deity to call forth.. It's like praying without a God.

Originally Posted by Etu Malku

Being an ex-Temple of Set member, I will have to disagree with you here . . .
A quick read through Dr. Aquino's definitive book on the CoS will clearly put into perspective what the CoS was and wasn't all about.

In a way I understand but think of it this way I dont think Anton would have needed to create his teachings if there wasnt radical Christians and also if the bible didnt exist the Church of Satan would be called something else..
I see the Radical type of Christian needing a super hero and where there is a super hero there has to be an arch villian. LOL.
I know Satanist doesnt generaly believe in the devil I am saying Anton rejected the Christian way for a reason. without the reason would there still be a Satanic bible?

Originally Posted by Occultist

In a way I understand but think of it this way I dont think Anton would have needed to create his teachings if there wasnt radical Christians and also if the bible didnt exist the Church of Satan would be called something else..
I see the Radical type of Christian needing a super hero and where there is a super hero there has to be an arch villian. LOL.
I know Satanist doesnt generaly believe in the devil I am saying Anton rejected the Christian way for a reason. without the reason would there still be a Satanic bible?

That's how I view it. The Church of Satan is a reaction against Christianity. It's entire concept is defined by Christian beliefs. No matter how much they deny it. lol

Originally Posted by norseman

Hi Animus !

"If the discovery of such objects implied the practice of what people call witch-craft nowadays, then nearly all religions would be forms of a witch cult"

Been thinking about this and I think you could be right even if you did speak in jest.
"Witch" was generally used against anyone who did not follow the accepted religious dogma of the day. In Europe/N.America etc, that means christianity. So, it was a label used to justify persecution.
This got me thinking - every religion uses rituals and incantations to approach their deity/deities - a description that fits the traditional view of Witchcraft surely.
With an open mind, think on this. A religion which consumes the flesh and blood of it's deity in both symbolic and, to some sects, real terms [ I believe the description is Substantiation.]. In their holy places, they use a strict form of words in the "spells" and have many carved images and idols, and a formal priesthood. High Witchcraft indeed !
You only need look at any religious ceremony with an unfriendly eye and it looks like witchcraft.
This is why I prefer to use Witch Craft, instead of Witchcraft and, truth be known, I prefer to drop the "witch" entirely and just call it The Craft [a modern word probably never used in the long-gone past]

What do you think ?

I think that is a valid point. Foreign and exotic cultic practices tend to have aspersions cast upon them by the ruling religious powers. But I also think that there is a difference between religious ceremony and the concept of witchcraft. I see witchcraft as being much more egocentric, in terms of being about a person influencing and manipulating something with a perceived power, while in religious ceremony, of course depending upon the theology, is more about turning oneself over to a divinity, and supplication, rather than using personal power.

And as a further thought, I think a useful distinction, for many magics is that they do not have to involve a god, while religious ceremony must be focused upon a god of some kind.

Or, at least, that's the way I think of it most of the time. It's a very hard maze to navigate, that's for sure, since religion is not a cut and dry thing.

[norseman]

"Witchcraft is a craft you only can learn in a coven." - Chrode

I missed this earlier. Chrode, you are miles off beam there. In Britain, the norm for both wiccans and practitioners of Craft is solitary. The concept of "coven" is more or less gone. More popular in the U.S. perhaps but there is a wide gulf between US and UK.
If you wish to see just how back the witch goes, you should read "Triumph of the Moon" by Professor Ronald Hutton, University of Bristol.