Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 03-03-2021, 10:11 AM
sky sky is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 15,533
  sky's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
The text doesn't say to deep breath to count breaths, time breaths etc. It mentions discerning, which is to say, if the breath is short, then you know it's short. If it is long then so be it. To be conscious of, to 'know', be aware of is the central theme.

The same applies to 'the whole body', but the paragraph is an overview of a long term meditation process. Typically in practice, one focuses on the breath to hone the sensitivity of the mind so that they may have an acute perception of subtle feeling in the body when the mind is sufficiently trained for that. In the breath meditation context, being sensitive to the body also alludes to focus on the actual real-lived feeling of the breath as a sensation.

Being sensitive to mental fabrication is really a nuance of being sensitive to the body, and as usual in Buddhist philosophy, although things are partitioned into clear categories for explanation's sake, it's really talking about facets of a single thing. Calm body and calm mind go hand in hand. If the mind is agitated there are tensions in the body, and the calming of body/mind is unified.

The breath meditation is a sensation meditation, but breath specific rather than a whole body focus. Naturally, you also become conscious of other feelings of the body, but these are not the focus. Whole body awareness is a bit more advanced, but it follows on from breath meditation, which is what the sutta also implies.

In breath specific meditation, the meditator will become 'sensitive to mental fabrication' (conscious of what their mind does). All sorts of thoughts will come up, and because the intention is to just feel the breath, you really notice how frequent this thinking is, and for how long you remain unaware of your breath. You notice that you aren't master of the mind, but subject to it. Not only that, when you start to feel uncomfortable, itchy and/or achy or whatever, you realise how reactivity to your feelings interupts your serenity. You notice your frustrations, impatience and so forth. Hence 'sensitive to mind' is part and parcel of the overall scope of the meditation, an aspect of the greater whole, rather than a specific 'step'. In short, you become acutely conscious (sensitive to) of what your mind does and the tendencies it has. However, the intention is still to remain with the breath regardless of how much the mind plays up, how often you are distracted or how long you remain distracted for.

The calming body/mind is how you notice tensions, and having noticed them, relax. This is 'part and parcel' of becoming conscious, though in depth tensions/fabrications would apply more to the full body or 'entire body' stages than being breath specific... However, it still happens in breath meditation, like you might be observing your breath but have stiff shoulders for example, which you'd relax or calm when you notice it.



No the Sutta doesn't mention counting breaths nor timing them but also it doesn't mention feeling the breath as it enters the nostrils, that is Vipassana Meditation.

In some Buddhist Meditation classes counting the breath is used as a precursor but it's not part of Anapanasati Meditation...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-03-2021, 12:13 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,074
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
No the Sutta doesn't mention counting breaths nor timing them but also it doesn't mention feeling the breath as it enters the nostrils, that is Vipassana Meditation.

In some Buddhist Meditation classes counting the breath is used as a precursor but it's not part of Anapanasati Meditation...


Yes, I just prefer the nostril version because it provides a good focal point and enables you to feel the subtler aspects of the sensation than say feeling the belly. Having a large area such as feeling the belly go up and down is fine for the relaxation, but not very effective as a point of focus or for training the mind for really subtle perception.

The philosophical reason they feel the breath at the nose is the references to feeling the air in front (parimukha) and references to observing it where it comes in and goes out of the body. Your translation words it 'to the fore'. Since it comes in and out of the nose, and the nose is in front of the face, they figured it means feel the air at the nostrils.

That's both the philosophical reason and the practical reason. If you want the 'official line' just google 'buddhist nostril breath' or something like that and you'll find tons of scholars explaining it. Most of them only explain the philosophical reason, and I don't know if any of them explain the practical reasons - maybe one or two.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-03-2021, 09:07 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,074
  Gem's Avatar
I know people take offense to the things I say and claim it's not really Buddhist, and they can paste real Buddhist stuff as knowledge, but I talk about things you can discern for yourself. You can google any point I make, but what google scholars say doesn't validate nor invalidate what I say. I'm just depending on reason and consistency and you can think for yourself, look within yourself, and discern rightly enough in your own way.

You don't know what the breath feels like unless you pay attention and feel it, and the feeling never feels the same. It is different from one moment to the next. 'Knowing' is only possible when you directly notice it - as it already is.

The breath meditation is notice what the real-lived feeling is like. There is no point generating counting, timing or controlling the rate of breath when all you want to know is what you r breath actually feels like.

People artificially generate the extras because they are trying to get something. They feel a desire, which incites the volition, and do these things as a means to an end. The end, however, is not abstract in space and time. It is where you actually exist as it 'already is'. Life lives now. Nothing is so self evident, so are you more interested in the truth, or is what you want what really interests you? If the latter, then best do the things as means to your ends. If the former, you have to stop and look into 'this'.

Mindfulness is for walking the path of truth, not for 'getting what you want'. Hence the practice is to 'see it as it is', not 'make it as you want it to be'. That's why you 'don't do' but 'just observe' so as to 'know' what is, as it is, exactly how it is experienced by you.

That was a bit intense, and I think maybe agree/disagree mentality has started, but I'll be back again, and you'll see, it'll all add up in the end.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha

Last edited by Gem : 05-03-2021 at 06:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-03-2021, 02:38 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,074
  Gem's Avatar
I hope there is a thread of consistency throughout what I said so far, and as I move on.

My last post was about how meditation is more about don't-do than about doing something as means to an end. However, not-doing is itself a means to the purpose of purification, overcoming sorrow, truth and liberation. Purification is enabled by accepting life as it is, letting go, surrendering, just being or the other things spiritual people like to say. In a realistic sense this means being aware of, but not judging or reacting to, your experience as it happens. The non-reactive, non-judgment mind-state is called 'equanimity', which key to enabling the purification.

When you breath meditate, stop doing and 'just observe', the world is left to be 'as it is'. When you 'stop doing' and 'just observe', your tendencies or strategies for repressing and/or resisting cease, and contents of the mind are untied and let free. These contents start to emerge into conscious awareness where they 'come to light' as the saying goes. Hence, people tend to find that breath meditation done rightly results in long held emotional contents coming to the surface. It's delicate as things are feeling raw, so the meditation comes with an element of self-care and requires safeties and protections appropriate for healing processes.

By examining the feeling of the breath more closely to feel the finer, subtler details of it, the subtler perceptive ability begins to peer deeper into the body/mind including emotive content. Non-judgment and non-reactive observation is the key as you assume the position of pure awareness and simply accept the experience as it arises and 'know yourself' as you are.

In the Buddhist philosophy there are emotional/mental contents and feelings of the body (see 5 skandhas), and 'pure awareness' unto which these arise and fall. The primary delusion we have is believing there is an entity which has, and is affected by, thoughts/emotions/feeling. Actually, there is no self at the centre of it, and pure awareness is not affected by the passing things, remaining 'untouched'.

In Buddhist philosophy, 'cause' is mainly related to the 2nd noble truth: suffering has a cause. There is a heap of debate about what suffering actually means. 'Dukkha'. But because suffering is internal to yourself, that's where it is examined. By examining it of oneself, you are 'knowing' with insight and growing in wisdom. Hence we learn the thing by watching ourselves and seeing for ourselves how we generate our own suffering and disturb our own peace of mind. It isn't found out by knowing what 'dukkha' means. Having philosophical knowledge is great, but 'knowing' has 2 additional elements: discerning the rationale of the teaching and; seeing the way in which it is true in yourself.

Cause. To end suffering you stop doing what causes it. The texts are perfectly clear. Craving is the cause and the way to end suffering is to cease craving. 'Craving' (or 'tanha') refers to the dynamic between aversion and desire, so generating aversion and desire is the cause of suffering. Stopping that is 'the way' to end it. That's a very simple sentence, but life is nuanced and complex, so ceasing your reactive tendencies might prove easier said than done.

Breath meditation follows this philosophy by feeling the real-lived sensation of breathing without aversion/desire. One develops the understanding that all experience as sensation, thought, feeling (skandhas) are passing, have no central identity, are not-me, do not pertain to myself, and pure awareness is not affected. In the greater discourse on mindfulness, Buddha described this as: ardent awareness with a thorough understanding of impermanence, free of aversion and desire in the world.

Meditation is not separate from, but founded on such underlying principles. If we can see the relevance of the principles, we are guided by our own internal understanding, and by understanding 'what' meditation is, one knows 'how' to meditate - as far as mindfulness is concerned.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha

Last edited by Gem : 05-03-2021 at 06:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-03-2021, 04:21 AM
Ciona Ciona is offline
Deactivated Account
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Multi-dimensional
Posts: 1,889
  Ciona's Avatar
I appreciate your posts here.
__________________
The process of evolution waits for no one, and no one's belief systems.

https://youtu.be/1q-k1Ev8fVc
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-03-2021, 06:47 AM
sky sky is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 15,533
  sky's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I know people take offense to the things I say and claim it's not really Buddhist, and they can paste real Buddhist stuff as knowledge, but I talk about things you can discern for yourself. You can google any point I make, but what google scholars say doesn't validate nor invalidate what I say. I'm just depending on reason and consistency and you can think for yourself, look within yourself, and discern rightly enough in your own way.

You don't know what the breath feels like unless you pay attention and feel it, and the feeling never feels the same. It is different from one moment to the next. 'Knowing' is only possible when you directly notice it - as it already is.

The breath meditation is notice what the real-lived feeling is like. There is no point generating counting, timing or controlling the rate of breath when all you want to know is what you r breath actually feels like.

People artificially generate the extras because they are trying to get something. They feel a desire, which incites the volition, and do these things as a means to an end. The end, however, is not abstract in space and time. It is where you actually exist as it 'already is'. Life lives now. Nothing is so self evident, so are you more interested in the truth, or is what you want what really interests you? If the latter, then best do the things as means to your ends. If the former, you have to stop and look into 'this'.

Mindfulness is for walking the path of truth, not for 'getting what you want'. Hence the practice is to 'see it as it is', not 'make it as you want it to be'. That's why you 'don't do' but 'just observe' so as to 'know' what is, as it is, exactly how it is experienced by you.

That was a bit intense, and I think maybe agree/disagree mentality has started, but I'll be back again, and you'll see, it'll all add up in the end.



You seem to have quite a lot of those ' Aversions ' you speak about

Regarding ' Desires ' . Buddha did not teach that desire was the cause of suffering, He actually encouraged his Disciples to arouse ardent desire for liberation. Everything He taught was because of His desires to help all Sentient beings. You could read some Teachings on Healthy/Wholesome Desires , they may help....



Some may find this Article helpful,

https://www.insightmeditationcenter....rum-of-desire/
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-03-2021, 07:05 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,074
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
You seem to have quite a lot of those ' Aversions ' you speak about






I think we should be as self-aware as possible and know what motivation impels the things we say because meditation is integrated with the conversation. I do understand what motivates personal assertion: an intention to incite some sort of reaction, which is the will to disrupt peace of mind and cause suffering, which I'm prone to as much as anyone else, though I am aware of that within myself, and I know that's my own kamma I generate. When I talk about that, though, it isn't about me particularly. It's about how this is universal.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-03-2021, 07:53 AM
sky sky is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 15,533
  sky's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I think we should be as self-aware as possible and know what motivation impels the things we say because meditation is integrated with the conversation. I do understand what motivates personal assertion: an intention to incite some sort of reaction, which is the will to disrupt peace of mind and cause suffering, which I'm prone to as much as anyone else, though I am aware of that within myself, and I know that's my own kamma I generate. When I talk about that, though, it isn't about me particularly. It's about how this is universal.



You do have a choice on what causes your suffering . Pain is inevitable, suffering optional
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-03-2021, 07:56 AM
Gem Gem is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,074
  Gem's Avatar
I just want to carry on since I mentioned the 4 Noble Truths (4NT) in my last post.

the 1st NT, there is suffering, kinda goes without saying because we all know that within ourselves, but I should just repeat that the semantic debate about what 'Dukkha' really means is an aside to actually knowing your own suffering.

The 2nd NT, suffering has a cause, is such a nuanced philosophy about how you cause your own suffering, harming yourself, and proceed to project that as intent to hurt others.

This subject of 'cause' is the whole topic of kamma, which deals broadly with cause and effect, but centres on the volition, though the deeper aspects of ignorance and delusion make us 'know not what we do'... which is why they tortured Christ, appareanty. This draws us back to seeing how resolving ignorance and delusion, i.e. growing insight/wisdom, in self awareness of 'know just what you do' enables one to cease doing what causes the suffering, which in reducing will to harm, enhances morality.

In normal life things happen quickly in a state of distraction, so we'd find it really hard to 'see what we're doing' and resolve that through self awareness, but when we take time out to breath meditate, we can see more clearly in a less distracted state. Even then, it requires a pretty sharp mind to really notice how you generate suffering, as much of that is going on at levels more subtle than you can currently perceive.

The breath meditation will reveal a lot of surface activity quite quickly. You notice your incessant mind chatter, your adverse reactivity to mildly uncomfortable sensations, your level of distraction, your disappointment, self defeating narrative, frustration, impatience etc. You might think all that is caused and you are subject to it all - effected and therefore causally reactive - but the deeper scenario is, no one is actually being affected and the reactivity is generated rather than caused.

The process is not linear, but if it were it would be like this: Ignorance of 'true nature'; delusion of self being effected, reaction of aversion/desire, incitement of volition (make it as you want it to be), generation of suffering. It is best to think of that as a circle with lines joining all the parts rather than a series of events. In Buddhist philosophy, this notion is called 'Dependent Origins', if you want to look it up.

It's not important, so looking up is for the most interested, but it's actually true in the way in which it is true within yourself just as you experience it. The philosophy can help clarify an understanding in the mind, but essentially, how you generate suffering is not found out by blowing the dust off old texts. Please do look it up, but don't take it as knowledge. If you see yourself reacting, disturbing your own peace of mind and generating suffering in yourself, that's the insight which enables the cessation of that activity. Otherwise you carry on 'not knowing what you do' and don't really resolve anything.

I know this doesn't sound like meditation because everyone has always said wonderful joy, god, peace etc, but seriously, life is good and bad, and meditation, at least mindfulness, is not about the states you want, but about the state which actually is.

The purpose of purification is like a terrible infection (just being illustrative here). It's painful and full of puss and coagulated gunk, but you clean it out and use fresh dressings because you know how that's it heals. Is there gunk in you? Dense like lead? Maybe. In meditation it is truth 'that's the way it is' - 'this is how it feels' and without too much distraction, let it be 'as it is' and keep feeling the air as it comes in, as it goes out.
__________________
Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-03-2021, 08:58 AM
sky sky is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 15,533
  sky's Avatar
[ The Pali word Dukkha, is usually translated as ' suffering, ' but has a more subtle range of meanings. It’s sometimes described metaphorically as a wheel that is off its axle. A more literal translation of the first noble truth might be ' life does not satisfy.'

The Buddha also taught that there are 3 kinds of Dukkha , The first is physical and mental pain from the inevitable stresses of life like old age, sickness, and death. The second is the distress we feel as a result of impermanence and change, such as the pain of failing to get what we want and of losing what we hold dear. The third kind of dukkha is a kind of existential suffering, the angst of being human, of living a conditioned existence and being subject to rebirth. ]


https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/


As I stated previously ' Suffering ' is a choice....
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums