GOSPEL OF THOMAS (new translation)

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Great informative post!
Above don't you mean Judas, and of course, I have read the same.
They knew each other the best and Judas did as Jesus wanted and understood why.

Thank you.

As I understand it Jesus and Thomas had the conversation but Thomas couldn't go through with it, Another text says that there was a conversation with Jesus and Judas beforehand, the story there is that Jesus asked Judas to betray him and forgave him beforehand. Judas was apparently devestated and disappeared, not because of the shame of a betrayer but because of what he did through Love. By the sound of it Judas was unhinged because of it. That shows a very different Judas to the one portrayed in the Bible.

The Gospel of Mary is also an interesting read and it's classed as a Gnostic text -
http://gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

It's also been suggested that Mary Magdelene fled with the Gnostic Cathars and went to the Languedoc in the south of France. The Cathars there caught the attention of both the Catholic Church and the king of France who eventually had them exterminated. The Cathars described themselves as "Good Christians" while the Vatican denied their orthodox Christianity, so it's possible that there was a Christianity based on Gnosticism as per those that practiced it, and the Catholic-enforced Christianity of today.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The fact that Thomas was indeed a disciple of Jesus ... does indeed make this a "touchy issue". I personally would consider it Christian though I can understand why some people might have a different opinion.

Yes, well that is I suppose, how it has gone for many years now. What is and is not "Christian", has been debated over, fought over, and even murdered over, for over 2000 years now.

The official "scriptures" were a product of a selection process by the bishops starting perhaps in the 3rd century, though depending on who one asks, the canonization was not completed (mostly) until some time in the 5th. Which was well into the time when Christianity had become the (an?) official religion of the Roman Empire. In any case, the Christian religion authorities of the time decided that Gnostics and their texts were out, and so the GOT, IGOT, and GOJ, and many others, are not officially Christian scriptures. Not only that, but they were actively suppressed and those who held and taught such things, or other such heresies, were persecuted for it for many centuries.

Personally, I agree with you and Ms. H. I think that was a mistake and these Gnostic texts have value to anyone trying to understand Jesus and his life. But, when in Rome, one must do as the Romans do I suppose. Those Romans could get rather cross you know, even to the point of hanging one upon one.

No wonder those heretics moved themselves out to the wilderness in the far flung corner of the empire and hid their scrolls in sealed jars. Which is a good thing, as if they had not, and the religious authorities had found out about them and their jars of contraband, we would not even have this wonderful GOT to contemplate here and now, on this very thread, all these centuries later.

Thinking about that really makes me appreciate those Gnostic heretics and the risks they took. It kind of makes me want to make an effort to read and contemplate them, given the efforts and the price paid by some to keep them from being lost forever. I want to understand not only the texts, but the thinking of the Gnostics who wrote them, and the reason others reacted to them with so much hate and fear so as to try to wipe them out. Even if one is forced into the wilderness to read them, I think perhaps that is a good thing anyway. Much easier to breathe the clean air, and much more spiritual out in the wilderness, with only the sky to look down and cast judgment upon what one is doing.

Oh well, as it has been, so it shall be, but for now all is well enough, as there is peace enough in the land that one can hear oneself read.

[GlitterRose]

Even if the texts had been destroyed, people like Irenaeus were so ticked off, they couldn't shut up about it. So we have them to thank for spreading the ideas.

About the Christian label...I'm fine if people don't want to tag me with it. I am not Christian in the same way that they are, and the title carries with it a lot of connotations that don't apply to me.

It is far more important to me to cultivate the Christ within. I have not a care how the outside world chooses to label me.

Originally Posted by GlitterRose

Even if the texts had been destroyed, people like Irenaeus were so ticked off, they couldn't shut up about it. So we have them to thank for spreading the ideas.

About the Christian label...I'm fine if people don't want to tag me with it. I am not Christian in the same way that they are, and the title carries with it a lot of connotations that don't apply to me.

It is far more important to me to cultivate the Christ within. I have not a care how the outside world chooses to label me.

Well now, this is quite true. Much of what was gknowen about these Gnostic heretics and their Gnostic supposed secret gknowledge, was just some hearsay from good ol Irenaeus, until some farmer took his chances and broke open an old jar and released a genie that had been kept bottled up for many centuries. Even today many defenders of orthodoxy seek to discredit those Gnostic works and suppress the ideas, many of whom I suspect have never even read or tried to understand the materials they are decrying as heresies. If ol Irenaeus had never mentioned any of them in his works of condemnation, then one wonders if anyone would have known what those Nag Hammadi texts were when they were discovered. Maybe they would have all gone into the fire to bake bread, maybe some would be happy if they had, and maybe some would even still like too. To no avail though, they are out far and wide now, and can’t be suppressed by any one person, or even a whole holy council of them. One must marvel at the irony of ol Irenaeus trying so hard to suppress these heresies that he ends up being the one who managed to keep their existence known about for all those years. An irony that I expect would not be appreciated by ol Irenaeus even if he was able to see it.

One wonders if his name should not instead be Ironius.

https://brentnongbri.com/2018/08/20/...scovery-story/

[GlitterRose]

Ironius...lol.

True enough all of that. It seems it is impossible to kill an idea. Especially, this idea. The more horrors that people do to wipe it out, the more attention they draw to it.

As far as the Council of Nicaea goes...that is one way we differ. We don't believe it held any real authority.

There's a quote for that.

Except the Lord build the house, he laboreth not that build it.

Originally Posted by GlitterRose

Ironius...lol.

True enough all of that. It seems it is impossible to kill an idea. Especially, this idea. The more horrors that people do to wipe it out, the more attention they draw to it.

As far as the Council of Nicaea goes...that is one way we differ. We don't believe it held any real authority.

There's a quote for that.

Except the Lord build the house, he laboreth not that build it.

Who is this we that you differ with?
You are not an honest to goodness Gnostic are you?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Personally, I agree with you and Ms. H. I think that was a mistake and these Gnostic texts have value to anyone trying to understand Jesus and his life. But, when in Rome, one must do as the Romans do I suppose. Those Romans could get rather cross you know, even to the point of hanging one upon one.

There are Gnostic texts and there are Gnostic Texts. Some of the Gnostic texts contradict some of the other Gnostic texts. I would advise people to not accept every Gnostic text but to use at least some discernment. I would also give the same advice for New Age, etc. texts.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

                           Verse 55


                                     Jesus said,


      “Whoever does not hate his father and his mother
                  cannot become a student of mine.

     “And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters
      and bear his cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Do you think that the word translated as "hate" was accurately translated?

When you first look at the expression “Whoever does not hate his father and his mother": it looks ominous. But if you keep looking at that expression, "not hate" it begins to take on a 'different shape'. "Not hate" can be simplified as "love". This would be in harmony with what is written in Matthew 10:37 which reads:
“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

A parallel scripture is found at Luke 14.26 which is almost identical with what is written in the Gospel of Thomas. The text reads:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

[BigJohn]

It should be noted, that other translators of verse 55 have rendered, in all cases as far as I know, the expression as "not hate".

[inavalan]

For whoever wants to see the #55 in context, in its original Coptic ... :)

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/GTh-pages/th_scan/11.jpg

Here's the translation key: http://gospel-thomas.net/x_transl.htm

http://gospel-thomas.net/keywords/Lnn_all.htm#L055