What happens if you die by your own means..

Originally Posted by Altair

Well said Greenslade. Everyone has beliefs but few people have been there, have been in the physical or mental suffering where they feel there is no other way out then to kill themselves. There are valid reasons for the individual. It is easy to focus on the people left behind but it's harder to accept the person that died was deeply suffering. Many people here believe in god and in ''karma'' so children dying from sickness or on the road is all fine and justified but it's not okay for someone in deep pain that can't be fixed to end their lives? Strange how that works.

Thank you

There are no 'catch-all' answers to this because everybody's reality is their reality, and if we think that suicide is full of pain and darkness then that doesn't come from any kind of real knowing. That alone is a huge Spiritual insight. That knowing comes from the mind 'filling in the blanks' and if Spiritual people can't come to that understanding, then what? Yes there are reasons for the individual and that's what needs to be come to terms with, we need to come to terms with the person's reality and move away from our own perceptions. The person may well be suffering but for another there is a clarity of mind that might not have happened otherwise, strangely enough. There is a place beyond mind that can be reached by the kind of severe mental and emotional trauma that can lead to suicide, a place many Spiritual people strive to be strangely enough.

In discussions like this, isn't looking for some kind of understanding the first thing we should be doing? To the person sitting there with a bottle of pills yes, they have their own valid reasons even if we don't perceive them as reason - or agree with them. As soon as we begin to understand from their perspective we become less self-absorbed. If there is a darkness it's ours in that we didn't strive to understand and that's a reflection on us - not them.

The term "Quality of Life" is often used in euthanasia in animals, but never with humans. With humans, quality of Life is determined by people who have the Free Will to take away the Free Will of others but that's another discussion for another day. A person's mental health is one of the main factors in determining their quality of Life and if that is compromised then so is that quality. Able-bodied people can take their own Lives and make that choice, the non-able-bodied don't have that choice but if they did?

My father-in-law lost the Will to live just after the lockdown started and he asked my wife's permission to go. She gave it to him out of Love. A few days later he was gone and frankly while it was so sad it was also one of the most human and Spiritual things that I've ever known. That kind of Love doesn't happen every day. I suspect that his mind had the power to create the circumstances of his death, that's not unheard of.

In the context of Spirituality, I would ask how many people in this thread believe in Life's Purpose/Karmic Agreements? What are the reasons suicide isn't discussed in that context? So since you asked a similar question, who's to say that suicide isn't a Life's Purpose? Going through what leads up to Suicide and the act itself is certainly as much of an experience as being Spiritual, if not more so. What makes it OK to die naturally or by accident and not by suicide? Who makes that judgement call and how does that reflect on the person making the call?

As for God and karma, that's based on judgement and prejudice in this context.

It's not so easy to ask someone who committed suicide successfully what was happening in the lead-up, maybe if we could that would lead to some kind of understanding - and maybe some decent Spirituality within these kinds of discussions. Perhaps if we looked at it from the perspective of Life's Purpose the perceptions might be very different, both from the perspective of the person and those that are left behind to deal with their traumas. Believe it or not people have committed suicide because they think staying alive would be a burden to those around them - they haven't committed suicide because of pain or suffering they've done it out of Love.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

In discussions like this, isn't looking for some kind of understanding the first thing we should be doing? To the person sitting there with a bottle of pills yes, they have their own valid reasons even if we don't perceive them as reason - or agree with them. As soon as we begin to understand from their perspective we become less self-absorbed. If there is a darkness it's ours in that we didn't strive to understand and that's a reflection on us - not them.

I couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The term "Quality of Life" is often used in euthanasia in animals, but never with humans. With humans, quality of Life is determined by people who have the Free Will to take away the Free Will of others but that's another discussion for another day. A person's mental health is one of the main factors in determining their quality of Life and if that is compromised then so is that quality. Able-bodied people can take their own Lives and make that choice, the non-able-bodied don't have that choice but if they did?

Yeah, I was on the verge of bringing that topic up (euthanised animals). We end the lives of our pets when they're very old and/or in pain that can't be cured. Many people are okay with that but not so much with humans. Perhaps there's a belief in humans being 'sacred' or notions of humans being 'above it all' and that they should look to prolong their lives at all costs. I think it's ultimately a reflection of the human condition, the awareness of being a someone in relation to other selves and knowing that death will happen. We cannot control other people that are at that point where they feel they want to end their own life (for whatever reason) and that also makes us feel powerless.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

My father-in-law lost the Will to live just after the lockdown started and he asked my wife's permission to go. She gave it to him out of Love. A few days later he was gone and frankly while it was so sad it was also one of the most human and Spiritual things that I've ever known. That kind of Love doesn't happen every day. I suspect that his mind had the power to create the circumstances of his death, that's not unheard of.

I think that's very powerful and courageous of your wife to accept that.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

In the context of Spirituality, I would ask how many people in this thread believe in Life's Purpose/Karmic Agreements? What are the reasons suicide isn't discussed in that context? So since you asked a similar question, who's to say that suicide isn't a Life's Purpose?

Exactly, though I understand why many think of it as a taboo topic. It's that desire for controlling others that comes around the corner again. We think we are in control of other people's (loved ones) lives, but perhaps recognizing their individuality is a lesson for us?

It's not an easy topic.. I 'get' the tabooness of it but I'm interested in the 'why' too, on both sides. The focus is often on the person that is suffering, and they just need to push forward and be 'strong', but yeah things are often far more complicated and most people don't just do it out of the blues.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Going through what leads up to Suicide and the act itself is certainly as much of an experience as being Spiritual, if not more so. What makes it OK to die naturally or by accident and not by suicide? Who makes that judgement call and how does that reflect on the person making the call?

Yes. It's mind boggling to me how it's ''natural'' to die from a car or a bacteria but not from one's own choices? What if someone signs up for the army and is send to a deadly battlefield? If you assume you come out of it but don't then that somehow passes as a 'good death'?

What is death? What is life? Why are some causes of death viewed as 'lessons' and as good deaths and others not?
There are lots of questions, but few answers, and the answers reflect the person.

Originally Posted by Uma

There is no "checking out", there is only jumping from one dimension into another and if you are not fit for that dimension you will be pulled back into the dimension you jumped out of.

And then to begin again as a baby and having to deal with the same unresolved issues again...
and again...
and again...
story of reincarnation.

What makes one "not fit for that dimension?" Who decides that? What makes one fit? In the context of non-linear time who's to say that the outcome wasn't known before you jumped into it? Doris Stokes said that reincarnation is seeing two sides of the coin, one side in one lifetime and another side in another lifetime. So if you were the perpetrator in this Lifetime you might come back as the victim in another so that you have a balanced understanding.

What if, in reincarnation, you committed suicide in another Life because of how you perceive suicide in this one? Wouldn't that be a nicely balanced experience?

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Altair

So.... for example, a terminally ill person who's 24/7 in pain should just remain in that pain, even if it's for years to come?

That sounds really cruel to me, where so called ''loved ones'' have severe attachment issues which are so strong that they'd rather see their beloved in constant pain than leave this world. Perhaps it is the ''loved ones'' that also need to ask themselves the hard questions, but that is very difficult. Death is a huge taboo, it's easier to accept it's just nasty nature or bacteria that committed the foul deed.

Ya I read about your post also . And your point is valid and I believe USA has made it legal to die by our means in case of terminal illness . People especially self-reliant ones prefer to die rather spend last times on bed through terminal illness. So long as system works as you described and there are appropriate safeguards to detect / prevent frauds/collusions in this , i think it could be ok to accede to death wish .

My response was general more for youth engaging in destructive activity (killing themselves or even others ) over very trivia issues of life.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

My response was general more for youth engaging in destructive activity (killing themselves or even others ) over very trivia issues of life.

I don't think there's even a single case of someone killing themselves over some trivial issue, Hitesh. IMO.

It may appear trivial to us, but there's deeper issues behind it. Look beyond the surface.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Altair

I don't think there's even a single case of someone killing themselves over some trivial issue, Hitesh. IMO.

It may appear trivial to us, but there's deeper issues behind it. Look beyond the surface.

In most other cases taking life of self or others is not recommended (except when u are state authorized police/military personnel in accordance with procedures & spirit of law) .

We hear many times young people commiting suicide / killing partner / others over
1. relationship failures /issues
2. failure in careers / financial losses /unemployment
3. road rage /college ragging
4. not getting on well with others
5. some superficial superstitious religious beliefs without base in true religions

Some of the above really are serious one's . But that still does not call for ending one's life . There are ample solutions to all such problems provided person is open and receptive to it. And simply does not justify the killing .

Even in case of terminal illness , i wish there is enough effort and time spent determine whether it is REALLY terminal or not . If it really terminal , state /society should go further deeper to eradicate root causes of such illness . Of course it is easier said than done . I understand that humans and medical sciences too have limitations . So would definitely go ahead with state decided / mandated law on matters like this.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

In most other cases taking life of self or others is not recommended (except when u are state authorized police/military personnel in accordance with procedures & spirit of law) .

So it's okay if a higher authority supports it, but not an individual. I disagree.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

We hear many times young people commiting suicide / killing partner / others over
1. relationship failures /issues
2. failure in careers / financial losses /unemployment
3. road rage /college ragging
4. not getting on well with others
5. some superficial superstitious religious beliefs without base in true religions

Two months ago an old colleague of mine ended her life. She was a uni drop out and I heard she was lonely. It saddens me but who am I to judge? There's a lot going on when someone has suicidal thoughts and what other people see or think (such as me in this case) are often just the symptoms of something deeper. I won't negatively judge the choice people make regarding this topic.

As for euthanasia... in my country the discussion has been big in recent years and Christians and religious people often just wanna look away, think that people just need a pat on the shoulder. They can't accept that people want to make these choices. I think this boils down to personal choice and it's not really up to the religions to make the call, nor to psychologically impact people and tell that the choice they want to make will condemn them to hell or wander as lost ghosts. That's all belief, nobody knows what is going to happen to said person. Even when people are terminally ill they still get terrorized by religion..

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by Altair

So.... for example, a terminally ill person who's 24/7 in pain should just remain in that pain, even if it's for years to come?

That sounds really cruel to me, where so called ''loved ones'' have severe attachment issues which are so strong that they'd rather see their beloved in constant pain than leave this world. Perhaps it is the ''loved ones'' that also need to ask themselves the hard questions, but that is very difficult. Death is a huge taboo, it's easier to accept it's just nasty nature or bacteria that committed the foul deed.

I agree, someone wanting their loved one to stay alive while they are suffering in agony are outright selfish, they are projecting their own fear of death onto their loved one.

Originally Posted by Altair

I couldn't agree more.

There are certain subjects that bring out the.... non-Spiritual in people and this is one of them.

Originally Posted by Altair

Yeah, I was on the verge of bringing that topic up (euthanised animals). We end the lives of our pets when they're very old and/or in pain that can't be cured. Many people are okay with that but not so much with humans. Perhaps there's a belief in humans being 'sacred' or notions of humans being 'above it all' and that they should look to prolong their lives at all costs. I think it's ultimately a reflection of the human condition, the awareness of being a someone in relation to other selves and knowing that death will happen. We cannot control other people that are at that point where they feel they want to end their own life (for whatever reason) and that also makes us feel powerless.

The story of euthanasia for humans is a very different story, especially here in the UK. There have been groups of people who are anti-euthanasia and it's down to them that it wasn't
made legal. They made a better case. One of the arguments was that people would euthanise their Loved ones to get rid of them, which I can understand up to a point. While I can understand the debate, what I can't stomach is people have control of other people that are suffering badly or are caring for them. It's easy to protest against euthanasia then go home to a healthy family.

It can be devastating when Loved ones pass over, but having to live with terminal ailments and everybody concerned wanting the pain over must be even worse. For the sufferer there's no quality of Life or dignity left sometimes.

Originally Posted by Altair

I think that's very powerful and courageous of your wife to accept that.

Thank you

Originally Posted by Altair

Exactly, though I understand why many think of it as a taboo topic. It's that desire for controlling others that comes around the corner again. We think we are in control of other people's (loved ones) lives, but perhaps recognizing their individuality is a lesson for us?

It's not an easy topic.. I 'get' the tabooness of it but I'm interested in the 'why' too, on both sides. The focus is often on the person that is suffering, and they just need to push forward and be 'strong', but yeah things are often far more complicated and most people don't just do it out of the blues.

There is nothing so dark as the darkness we ourselves create, and while people bang on about enlightenment and living in the Light it seems they have their limits. Or even Life's Purpose. One of the biggest problems is that people don't want to or can't really understand another's reality, and this certainly comes through in threads like these. Few people want to 'get into the mind' of the reasons people commit suicide, preferring instead to just pass it off - or worse. Understanding someone's mind who has committed suicide is a place angels fear to tread, yet it's more of a 'lesson' than all the religious texts.

Originally Posted by Altair

Yes. It's mind boggling to me how it's ''natural'' to die from a car or a bacteria but not from one's own choices? What if someone signs up for the army and is send to a deadly battlefield? If you assume you come out of it but don't then that somehow passes as a 'good death'?

What is death? What is life? Why are some causes of death viewed as 'lessons' and as good deaths and others not?
There are lots of questions, but few answers, and the answers reflect the person.

It comes down to societal norms and not any kind of Spiritual truths, had this been a culture where suicide was acceptable would we even be discussing it? It's a 'bad thing' because people either can't or won't understand, because one of the most common 'results' is people being left with perceptions of their own failings - whether they're real or imagined.
If someone goes to war and dies then it's honourable while suicide can be seen as failing and an easy get-out. And yes, that is all about the person.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

My response was general more for youth engaging in destructive activity (killing themselves or even others ) over very trivia issues of life.

This is where it all goes sideways. If you see their reasons as 'trivial' then that's about you not them, that's you perceptions of their reasons and frankly calling them 'trivial' is not very Spiritual. Every case of suicide - every case - is a 'lesson' in how individuals perceive reality and you as a Spiritual person can gain some pretty interesting insights into that. It can also help you realise how you perceive your reality. The issues in your Life as as real as the issue in their Lives - they're very real and important to them.

I still haven't had my question answered so I'll ask you, who's to say that suicide and what leads up to it isn't as valid an experience as being Spiritual?

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

We hear many times young people commiting suicide / killing partner / others over
1. relationship failures /issues
2. failure in careers / financial losses /unemployment
3. road rage /college ragging
4. not getting on well with others
5. some superficial superstitious religious beliefs without base in true religions

Some of the above really are serious one's . But that still does not call for ending one's life . There are ample solutions to all such problems provided person is open and receptive to it. And simply does not justify the killing .

Even in case of terminal illness , i wish there is enough effort and time spent determine whether it is REALLY terminal or not . If it really terminal , state /society should go further deeper to eradicate root causes of such illness . Of course it is easier said than done . I understand that humans and medical sciences too have limitations . So would definitely go ahead with state decided / mandated law on matters like this.

This is what perpetuates suicide as taboo, a darkness and so on. Until you yourself have been in that position, until you have walked in their shoes or been close enough to someone in that position then....

The discussion of suicide isn't a discussion of the Spirituality of suicide - Spirituality hasn't come into this thread so far and I doubt it ever will on any thread. Suicide is a discussion of our humanity, so maybe that should learn how to use our muscles before we go running off to leave it all behind.