Why/how do people accept duality?

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by TattieHowker

non-Duality is the 'collapsing' of the distance between a non-existent 'thing' and consciousness.

I think thoughts do exist, Scientists can watch them forming in the brain with various imaging machines. So ideas that divide are real and exist. But they are optional for consciousness to be all entangled up with.

Consciousness can wholly focus on ideas, beliefs, and thoughts, experience the world "though" and with them or not. I would call them made up things, not non-existent things. Made up things do exist.

Some teachers call these made up realities conceptual reality or refer to it as "form." There is the thing we are experiencing and added to that is our ideas about it which we also experience. Take away our ideas about it and just experience it as it is, I think that is when duality collapses.

[TattieHowker]

Originally Posted by Maisy

Made up things do exist.

What existence do they have? And what is a made-up thing and what is a real thing? When you delve down into the nature of thoughts, beliefs and made-up things they all come from the same place. As Alan Watts said, "We thingify things."

The Sanskrit word "Ahankara/Ahamkara" means "The 'I' of invented things." Roughly translated it means the 'things' of perceptual and conceptual reality, or form if you like. Its also known as Relative Reality because it is a reality that's relative to our own thoughts, ideas, beliefs, backgrounds..... etc. If you had grown up in my part of the world, you would be a different 'you'. You are 'you' relative to where you grew up, etc. I am me relative to where I live, etc. Just trying to keep it simple here. All of your thoughts, beliefs, your reality is relative to 'you'. If you'd grown up next door to me, you'd have different beliefs.

All of those things - those perceptions, beliefs, etc are 'invented things' because they are the stuff of relative reality, and therefore not real - not Absolute Reality. As you read this your reality is changing, perhaps slightly and without your realising but changing anyway. Whether or not you believe that is a different story. You've referred to "Some teachers," so your reality has changed relative to that. If you hadn't read what they'd said, how different would your reality be? And that's not a criticism by the way, I'm just trying to lead you down a path. Your thoughts are 'invented' relative to everything you perceive yourself to be. Had you not listened to those teachers, this would be a very different conversation because you'd be a different 'you'. If that makes sense.

Take away all of those 'invented things' of Relative Reality that your 'I' is made of, and what do you have? Not just your ideas but everything you perceive yourself to be or have, including beliefs.

Your experiences are also relative to 'you', but the experience and the experiencer are one and the same. Since this is a non-Duality thread. The experience and the experiencer being separate is Duality. You don't experience what 'it as it is', you experience you.

The basis of non-Duality is that "There is not two things, there is only 'you' and you are not a thing." That's the stumbling block, because people generally don't like to think of themselves a no-thing, they prefer to think of themselves as something. The irony is that when you think of yourself as no-thing you become everything.

[kris]

Originally Posted by TattieHowker

My question is what are the reasons people have the beliefs they do? What are the reasons you have the beliefs you do?

"cogito, ergo sum, (Latin: “I think, therefore I am) dictum coined by the French mathematician and philosopher René Descartes in his Discourse on Method (1637) as a first step in demonstrating the attainability of certain knowledge."

Now I will speak or write. Thinking creates beliefs. If we stop thinking there won't be beliefs. But if Descartes is right, if we stop thinking, we won't be either.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by TattieHowker

What existence do they have? And what is a made-up thing and what is a real thing?

One example is how humans name land. For example "California." The belief you can go to the border, look down at the dirt there, and say that dirt is Nevada and that dirt right next to it is California is an example of human made reality. As a group, humans agree these made up realities are real and that makes them experiential. Human made up beliefs can be experienced in many ways. For example by looking at a map or globe or atlas.

There are millions of things humans have made up and accepted as reality. Human created reality. Once human's accept them as a group or population or a culture, they take on physical reality in many ways. In books, movies, images , maps, in county clerk offices, in law, buildings etc. For example, buying land, or an area of dirt. It is a legal thing. Marriage is another example. Made up reality. A piece of paper, a ceremony, legally says you are bound to another. It's an agreed upon reality. Religions, temples, churches, holy land, holy water, money, and on and on.

There are a lot more but some would be controversial to mention. Human are very attached at made up reality and would get angry at the suggestion some are not actually real. But that's the thing, human created reality is real to humans! It is experienced as real. Anytime a human accepts a made up human reality as real, it becomes real to them in every way. They can then experience it and experience is believed and felt to confirm the existence of something.

Does Sunday feel like a different day from Monday? Is a year a real thing? One day it is 2022 and the next 2023? A month? Signs of the zodiac? A birthday? Christmas, Santa, Halloween? Lunch time? How long a work day is? What is full time or part time work? How many hours? What's an hour or a minute. We invent things to measure these invented things. What are the differences between males and females? Some are physical and some are made up such as hair styles, clothing styles, hats, shaving patterns, make-up use, etc.

Originally Posted by TattieHowker

All of your thoughts, beliefs, your reality is relative to 'you'. If you'd grown up next door to me, you'd have different beliefs.

True. It happens at an individual level but also at a group, community, and cultural levels as well. The conditioning. It even happens at a global level since with the internet, information and belief can be shared worldwide.

Originally Posted by TattieHowker

The experience and the experiencer being separate is Duality. You don't experience what 'it as it is', you experience you.

I think the point we are alluding to, and "spiritual" or religious teachings on this thing are, it's not really you is it? It's conditioning. And I think what the "mystic" discovers is while it is always present in the mind, one can "see through it" or "drop it" , drop identification with it, at will. That is, experience and perceive without it's influence on perception or experience. That could even be called mindfulness by some. The ability to suspend the connection between an experience of now and one's ideas or beliefs about the what is or now. To experience "as it is" or without an idea about it, usually based on the past. Past memory and knowledge etc.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by TattieHowker

The basis of non-Duality is that "There is not two things, there is only 'you' and you are not a thing." That's the stumbling block, because people generally don't like to think of themselves a no-thing, they prefer to think of themselves as something.

It's such a complicated thing but I guess it is also pretty simple as well. I think the fact consciousness is confined to a particular physical body in this particular planet or physical world creates some of the stumbling blocks. Each body needs things to sustain life. A place to live, food and water, safety. These things can be very hard to get and keep. Then humans are social animals and need others to be happy. Humans do not thrive alone. So then humans come together to meet these physical and emotional needs, for food and shelter and companionship, and it gets more and more complicated. The bigger the groups of humans get, the more structure and rules we need, laws and moral codes and on and on. We create cultures and societies and large and small groups. We create military to protect the whole, to defend the land we have settled on, the things we have gathered and created though our efforts.

We all become a "who" or "thing" in the overall community. What is our role in the group? How do we contribute? We develop self interest. Seek our share of resources. This sets up competition between individuals and groups as resources are limited. But this all sets up the context we live in, the duality experience of existence as a human being, a consciousness in a particular body in a particular place within a particular group, in a particular time.

The mystic can drop identification with all of this invented reality but the mystic still needs food and shelter and safety. That's where something like contemplative monks comes into the picture. A monastery gives some a place to be "non-dual" or to not identify with the body for example. (like the practice of Buddhist monks and nuns shaving their heads) But they still have a role in the larger community and in fact, rely on the community as a whole for financial support. So it all takes place in an invented religion where certain things or invented realities or beliefs are agreed upon as a group.

I think being in a physical body with all of it's needs sets up us being a "thing" or a "who" or "what." We all get a name which is pretty funny. It's completely arbitrary and done so we know if our body is being referred to by another. Also to establish connections with other individuals. For identification purposes within a larger group. We are a "person" in a larger group. We have "family" live in a town etc. A history even where we can search our DNA back generations. But is it a history of us as a soul or consciousness or just the body or vehicle we are in for a short relative time? Obviously as a soul it's doubtful we have a link to the bodies history.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by kris

"cogito, ergo sum, (Latin: “I think, therefore I am) ...But if Descartes is right, if we stop thinking, we won't be either.

Computer's "think" but are not self aware, aware of the thoughts or computations as "separate." If I look at an apple, I know I am the looker, not the apple. It's that awareness of me and that, which confirms my existence. I think that's what Descartes meant. I am aware it is me thinking, therefore I exist. One would still exist during times they are not thinking. They would be aware they are thinking or not thinking.

I don't think awareness of an "other" defines a dualistic experience. I can know I am not the apple and not be dualistic. To me, awareness of myself as a point of perception is a given. A simple reality of existence. A perceivable fact. I think "duality" is about identification with our conditioned mind. For example, while perceiving an apple, add in conditioned beliefs about apples. Like they are good or bad, etc. A honey crisp or a gala. I think we can perceive the world as it is, or though our cultural conditioning. I think perceiving the world as it is, without thought or conditioning, is non-duality. I don't think awareness and understanding is dependent on thought. I think they are independent of each other.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by kris

"cogito, ergo sum, (Latin: “I think, therefore I am)... But if Descartes is right, if we stop thinking, we won't be either.

To echo Maisy, "cogito, ergo sum" is often interpreted as saying that we exist because thinking is present, and therefore without thinking we would not be present either.

In other words, "I think, therefore I am".

But Descartes was intent on finding something which could be known without any doubt, and his conclusion was "I think, therefore I am."

In other words, there is an "I" which is thinking and therefore there is an "I" which exists beyond any doubt. And if we doubt the existence of the "I" then there is still the "I" which is experiencing the doubt. It is impossible to doubt and also not exist.

This may be a subtle distinction, but it gets us away from the notion that our existence is dependent on thinking.

Peace

[kris]

Thank you, Maisy and iamthat for your thoughtful posts. The point I was making in my previous post is that our beliefs are associated with our thoughts. When we cling to our thoughts, they become our beliefs. Even if we stop to think for a moment, our association with the thoughts of the previous moment remains. and so do our beliefs. To be without beliefs, we have to consciously dissociate ourselves from them, which also requires us to think.

[TattieHowker]

Originally Posted by Maisy

One example is how humans name land. For example "California." The belief you can go to the border, look down at the dirt there, and say that dirt is Nevada and that dirt right next to it is California is an example of human made reality.

This is a Spiritual forum, and even though the ancients didn't see what we in the west call psychology as separate from Spirituality, I could probably count with one hand the number of people that could talk about the ego as anything other than something they made up themselves.

But the point is, it's the reality they themselves have created/accepted and Spirits are reincarnating into that same reality. Do they know something you don't?

Originally Posted by Maisy

The conditioning. It even happens at a global level since with the internet, information and belief can be shared worldwide.

Yes it does and many people talk about 'conditioning' without really understanding it. Spirituality is as much conditioning as anything else - as is saying it's not conditioning.

Originally Posted by Maisy

I think the point we are alluding to, and "spiritual" or religious teachings on this thing are, it's not really you is it? It's conditioning. .

You were saying about borders and conditioning? Jungian psychology is based on ancient teachings and they knew of cognitive behaviour probably a couple of thousand years BC, because its 'equivalent' is written in Sanskrit. The psychology and the Spirituality are the same, but it's western psychology and ego that separates it.

What you are conscious of is what your unconscious spits out, and your unconscious is the largest part of yourself - the 'you' that you think you are is largely a product of your unconscious. It's conditioning - ie the non-existent separation of psychology and Spirituality - that makes people think otherwise.

[TattieHowker]

Originally Posted by Maisy

I think being in a physical body with all of it's needs sets up us being a "thing" or a "who" or "what."

We are Spirit on a human Journey, reincarnation is real.... You've heard so many narratives along those lines, no doubt. So if you are Spirit on a human Journey, what do you get out of coming here?

It's only complicated because people make it complicated, and they're too busy searching for answers to questions they already have the answer to.