Atheism is a Religion

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

And I have addressed your direst questions and more but you're not interested in anything other than I must have beliefs. Sorry Dazza, but trying to answer anything with you has become pointless. Regardless of what I say, you're going to tell me it's all about beliefs and you're going to get your hair off because I don't conform to your belief system. And you'll tell me that I'm negating your premises because I don't agree with you.

Yup. Exactly my experience in this 'discussion' here..

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The experience I had the therapy for was after a car accident and it was part of the insurance package. No beliefs and the experience wasn't perceived, it was lived.

Exactly. And an occurring belief would be a reaction to the experience. You have your experiences, your senses and brain register and recognize stuff (the lived experience) before you entertain a belief about stuff. Most organisms go about registering and recognizing stuff without entertaining themselves with essentialism where they have ''belief in oneself''. A dog isn't thinking about the other dog 'being a dog'. There are sense driven experiences and there is memory. We humans can add another layer to it, this 'mind', and it's an illusion IMO ((but very useful also for multiple reasons)).

[MikeS80]

If religion is solely the service and worship of god or the supernatural, then atheism is not a religion. Science is not the service and worship of god or the supernatural.

Is a non-belief or a lack of belief in god, a belief? No, hence the words non-belief and lack. Non-belief and lack of belief of god, means being without a belief in god, and does not necessarily mean someone believes god does not exist.

Someone whom has a belief that god does not exist, has a belief, that god does not exist.

Me thinks, confusion and debate stems from that the 2 types of individuals above are 2 types of atheists, which people lump together.

[MikeS80]

God-Like, belief and non-belief in god are not in opposition with each other, like good/bad, positive/negative and fear/love are in opposition to each other.

The only people who will think belief and non-belief in god are in opposition to each other, are people who do have a belief in god.

Originally Posted by God-Like

I did . I mentioned women's rights and equality .

How can you believe in women's rights and that not entertain equality .

So what makes my research different form your's or Jung's regarding the conscious and the unconscious .

You made a clear distinction in that my self work and understandings came through unconscious beliefs .

I can be a thig that uses the platform of women's rights and not have a belief in women's rights.

How much work have you done on the unconscious. other than telling me you're not interested in it?

I didn't use the phrase "unconscious beliefs".

Originally Posted by God-Like

I have dude and the point is that I have asked you to explain in order to clarify .

if I did clarify, what would your reply be? I think you'd tell me it was a belief, that I had to have a belief system in place and you would get your hair of at me because you couldn't understand me.

Originally Posted by God-Like

There is no point in keeping the Panto act up if we simply go round in circles .

No, there isn't, Dazza

Originally Posted by God-Like

I know you have said that . That's not the question I have been referring too lol as I keep saying .

So where do you think Jung's understandings have come from . Where do you think the understandings have come from with Ramana or Tolle or any spiritual teacher or master .

You don't seem to understand that simply cos one does a lot of research in behaviour or self or reads 1000's of books in a certain field of study that at some point it all is understood and related too in reflection of the self .

Jung's understandings come from somewhere other than his own head, as does all scientific understandings. Scientific understandings go through a rigorous process before they're even accepted as a scientific understanding and often they are changed or replaced as the general understanding of the subject grows.

As for Spiritual beliefs there is only what is believed to be the truth and if people didn't believe in the gurus there would be no gurus.

You don't seem to understand that you have a limited foundation from which to have a perspective from, and even if I did try and explain it to you all you would do is hold to your tenuous position regardless. With respect Dazza, that's all you've done so far. As I've said before, beliefs are a long way from the whole story that you're not interested in.

Originally Posted by Altair

Yup. Exactly my experience in this 'discussion' here..

Exactly. And an occurring belief would be a reaction to the experience. You have your experiences, your senses and brain register and recognize stuff (the lived experience) before you entertain a belief about stuff. Most organisms go about registering and recognizing stuff without entertaining themselves with essentialism where they have ''belief in oneself''. A dog isn't thinking about the other dog 'being a dog'. There are sense driven experiences and there is memory. We humans can add another layer to it, this 'mind', and it's an illusion IMO ((but very useful also for multiple reasons)).

Beliefs are what we become conscious of and that's what the unconscious 'feeds' us, and even though all of our senses can tell us something has happened we can believe it didn't. Or we can believe it was negative karma from a past life experience. While beliefs do play a part in the creation of our reality it's a relatively small part and often the effect they have is not what we'd like it to be.

Animals and humans have evolved to recognise things for survival, and their brains have certain processes that are common. Dogs recognise other dogs because evolution has 'learned' that there is safety in numbers, and lone dogs would have been prey. Dogs also recognise tail wagging or bared teeth and act accordingly, and humans have those same base instincts. Even Spiritual ones. Mr caveman finds comfy cave and the brain floods with serotonin, and the caveman family survive because it feels good to be in the warm and safe cave. Maybe Spirituality, having beliefs and being right has the same effect and people feel warm and have a feeling of well-being.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Beliefs are what we become conscious of and that's what the unconscious 'feeds' us, and even though all of our senses can tell us something has happened we can believe it didn't. Or we can believe it was negative karma from a past life experience. While beliefs do play a part in the creation of our reality it's a relatively small part and often the effect they have is not what we'd like it to be.

Absolutely, beliefs are a very small part of whom 'we' are, or better said, how we experience our life. Much of what occurs happens in auto mode. Take something like driving. Most of what you do on the road is basically you in 'cruise control', only in a new or rare situation are you actively becoming aware again.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

God-Like, belief and non-belief in god are not in opposition with each other, like good/bad, positive/negative and fear/love are in opposition to each other.

The only people who will think belief and non-belief in god are in opposition to each other, are people who do have a belief in god.

Not really sure where you're coming from Mikey mike, but there is either no belief or understanding of what God is or refers too, or there is and one chooses to not believe in it .

The latter has to entertain a belief in what God is or refers too in reflection of themselves .

This is why a peep can say I don't believe in a God that is a man that sits on a throne in the heaven's judging everything I do .

Well there has to be a self belief in themselves as a man or woman to begin with in order to conceptualise what it is that they don't believe in .

A rabbit or a baby doesn't understand the concept of God and doesn't believe nor disbelieve in God because to them there isn't awareness of God in any shape or form.


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I can be a thig that uses the platform of women's rights and not have a belief in women's rights.

.

You can be anything you like when you give hypotheticals .. but let's just stick to what I said and implied .

And the agenda that one has whether or not there is a genuine support for equality or not will encompass a belief in their agenda .

Tell me how that isn't true .

Can you do that?


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

How much work have you done on the unconscious. other than telling me you're not interested in it?

.

I have done plenty of work on the unconscious self and I am interested in it . When I said to you I am not interested in it in regards to what you said was because I am more interested in your conscious beliefs that are present within experience and within awareness of that .

My initial self enquiry was to get to the bottom of my suffering .

Something that was not consciously known .

You see, I don't need a Jung text book at all . All I need is my self and myself can realise many self aspects that were previously hidden .

I have brought many unconscious past live issues to the fore and spent 8 years working on one in particular .

I had worked on engrams which were unconscious triggers from my abuse suffered in this lifetime .

So I do actually know what I am speaking about and like said I have worked and discovered and healed and realised many things about self and mind and beyond that .

But according to your belief and your belief in Jung you put me into a category where I have no credibility in regards to what I speak about and there are simply beliefs in my head that derive through the unconscious .

Now this is why I have said to you that what you say in regards to my credibility is simply a judgemental belief that you have through perceiving what you do about me .

No two ways about this Slade ..


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I didn't use the phrase "unconscious beliefs".

Your beliefs are created for you in your unconscious .. is what you said . Therefore they are unconscious beliefs .

You implied that Jung did his research whereas my self work simply reflects my unconscious beliefs .

So I wanted to know why myself and other spiritual teachers and masters are tarred with this brush and you and Jung not .

I am still waiting for you to answer .


x daz x