Continued discussion on fundamentals of mindfulness meditation

[Gem]

I always talk about the same thing, so do not expect anything new from me in this thread

It's a universal topic, and not a so-called 'Buddhist' one, because the truth applies to everyone - Buddhist or not. I put it in the Buddhist section because that's what I learned, and Buddhists have the best mindfulness philosophy. However, one must understand that no one in the religion is an authority, and it's up to individuals to observe, investigate and discover their own insight.

One has to understand that the mindset of right vs. wrong, and agree vs. disagree, is the mind trying to garner and retain knowledge, but with wisdom, such grasping to the known subsides and multiple facets appear when a 'lightbulb moment' switches on. It is not a learning that gives you knowledge; it's an insight which changes you as a person. Having a mind that is primed for inspiration is the right way forward here, so 'empty the cup' and enjoy the ride.

Everything (from a Buddhist perspective) starts with 4 Nobel Truths (4NT):

1) there is suffering
2) suffering has a cause
3) suffering can end
4) there is a way to end suffering

'Mindfulness' or 'insight meditation' or 'vipassana' (same thing) is aimed at the self-discovery of those truths, which in the first person become: 'this is suffering, this is how I cause such suffering, this is how suffering subsides and this is the way to end suffering'. Then we find that people see things differently, have different processes, and they find out things in various ways, but the principles they discover are universally true. As such, suffering is both caused and resolved in one and only one way - though that is extraordinarily nuanced.

The Buddhists say the cause of suffering is craving, and that's true enough, but then there is a 3000 year long discussion about 'what craving is' and the same on 'what's suffering'. One has to understand that all that commentary is monks generating the knowledge which props up the religious organisation and their own status within it. No one actually discovers anything reading these endless ruminations. If interested in it, then might as well read it, but if not all that interested, it doesn't really matter, you just undertake the meditation and find out the way in which the 4NTs are true for you.

I'll continue with the meditation and the philosophy behind it in the next post. It's a forum, so you'll have to 'filter out the noise' going forward, and frankly, this medium isn't suited to much nuance, but we'll have enough fun at the level the forum enables, and see what happens next

[Miss Hepburn]

Good topic, imo.

[JustBe]

Your like an old record on repeat. Haha

I agree it does seem right to place these topics here, because Buddhism does hold within it the right philosophy of mindfulness.

It’s very simple when you take out all the bells and whistles that many people still and do attach too. I think this also applies to those attached to the philosophy itself.

You can never not see the truth of you right where your looking and observing, so if your attentive to you, even so, you can be more observant to where your clinging desiring, wanting, needing things to be a certain way.

The way is many, but often you’ll find people even attach to their way, desire order and direction that fits their ideas of how things should be.

The other thing is people in this way of trying to control the way, (even as it may serve an important step in process) only really need be attentive to an ongoing inward reflective process to grow through those steps as themselves.

Your right the principles people can discover are universally true. I’ve called this ‘sameness’ developed through being open in this way of our differences.

For me the platform of sameness regardless of beliefs, or needs or process, can support your own deepening into that nuanced subtle level of being, just by being open without clinging or craving to old ideas, old experiences that might have once determined a process and knowing.

As I’ve learned, it’s an ongoing continual letting go process. If your determining process through something fixed and not as a continuum, (letting the whole view fall away) you’ll continue to relate all new process through that field of vision, which means your determining openings through old seeing. This in and of itself, can actually appear your growing deeper, but in fact your circling the old view.

And that too is another trap of your own design, another layer of clinging..

[wstein]

Perhaps this is 'new' to Gem:

For many years I thought mindfulness and being-present were the same thing. Then about 3 years ago at a Taoist event, I learned this is not the case.

Recently I learned that Mindfulness is a specific (advanced) form of one-focus meditation. The focus seems to vary a bit depending on the lineage of the practice but roughly it is the current state and surroundings of your physical being. The most common variations is to exclusively focus on your sensory experience. Some practices also include your internal knowing/knowledge.

FYI: being present is a state of being (self) without the ego self being in control or affecting your actions.

[JustBe]

A new post at least.. hehe

That makes sense what your explaining Wstein.

For me they both fit together. It’s like one allows for the other.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by wstein

Recently I learned that Mindfulness is a specific (advanced) form of one-focus meditation. FYI: being present is a state of being (self) without the ego self being in control or affecting your actions.

Yep - being present without ego is the gist of it, and it is also a very subtle and nuanced meditation practice. In Buddhism there 4 objects of awareness, body/feelings and mind/thought, but since body and mind are fairly abstract concepts, I prefer to reduce this to feeling (vedana) and thought (dhammas). The main reason for including abstract body and mind is, if you know the nature of the body, you understand the nature of all matter, and if you know the nature of your mind, you understand the nature of all minds.

One reason the other senses of sight, sound etc are over-looked is you can block the ears, close the eyes and so forth, but you can't block the feelings, and the deaf, blind and those without smell or taste still have feelings and thoughts. Hence, in order to be universal as a practice, without excluding anyone, The Buddhist approach is observing feeling (as it relates to mind).

Another reason why feeling is preferred to other senses is, all the other senses, including thought, resolve through the nervous system and produce feelings. Hence the object of craving is feeling, and the other senses but means of producing feelings. Hence we say 'from feeling craving arises', and 'craving is the cause of suffering'. This is where feeling inter-relates with psychology. Therefore; 'just observing' or 'mere awareness' of feeling without any 'craving' or psychological reactivity is precisely the meaning of awareness without ego. With 'right meditation', the no ego aspect is key.

That said, of course all the senses are included in general mindfulness, so you're aware of taste, and sounds and whatever is present all the time, but the understanding that all the senses culminate in the feeling (vedanas) to which one reacts (with craving or aversion) centralises the approach on the 4NT and the cause and resolution resolution of suffering.

[Gem]

Gotta get back to the start, and typically, when you get into the Buddhist meditation approach, they'll kick off with breath awareness. People who know me know I have a preferred specific method and the reasons why I claim it's optimal. I'm a bit pedantic about it because if you're a bit loose at the start, you won't gain the skills needed for progression later on.

That's just a bit of bragging, really. Mine is the best way and all that , but I'm not a spiritual master or a teacher or any other persona one might imagine me as in order to contrast and affirm their own identity status. 'You do you' as they say. In this discussion, there is no guide, so you are 100% on your own to discern for yourself honestly. The moment the mind starts to believe, the observation is lost and you started fabricating mental nonsense. My teachers (I had a few in my life) understood, so they didn't waste time on metaphysics or if reincarnation is real etc. I received the philosophy verbally in conjunction with the respective stage of meditation. At the beginning, meditation is pretty rough and the philosophy real simple, and by the end, the meditation is sublime and the philosophy nuanced.

I love to ramble, and go right off the track. I meant to say it starts with breath awareness, and develops and progresses into something more nuanced. Notwithstanding, breath awareness extremely nuanced in itself, and if practicing say 45 minutes a day, it would probably take 2 or 3 months before the next phase of subtler body feelings really sets in.

I should mention that mindfulness is a very particular form of meditation. Most of us imagine meditation as the yogis and internet influencers portray it, kinda mystical and lovely and trippy in the mind, but mindfulness is specific to the healing process - 'for the purification of beings' so it is said - and it's apt to conscious awareness penetrating through the layers more physically...

Because the gurus have told us 'spiritual stories' (and will no doubt do that on this thread as well) it is common that we expect 'some kind of experience'. IOW we crave and expect something special, but the essence of this meditation is no craving. Expectation or craving is obviously mentally fabricated - not the reality of lived-experience as it 'just is'. The intent in mindfulness is always returning to conscious awareness of real-lived experience just as you are experiencing it. Hence, I can feel this breath coming in, and then, the next breath going out. That's all it is.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yep - being present without ego is the gist of it, and it is also a very subtle and nuanced meditation practice. In Buddhism there 4 objects of awareness, body/feelings and mind/thought, but since body and mind are fairly abstract concepts, I prefer to reduce this to feeling (vedana) and thought (dhammas). The main reason for including abstract body and mind is, if you know the nature of the body, you understand the nature of all matter, and if you know the nature of your mind, you understand the nature of all minds.

Whenever I encounter Buddhist practices, its pretty much the same theme. They talk about aiming towards the egoless state [or spiritual], but all the practices demand you go back towards the physical.
Yes, I know that the very tangible physical is more than most beginners can handle. Still, it seems like a smoother transition towards the destination would be more effective.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by wstein

Still, it seems like a smoother transition towards the destination would be more effective.

Effective just depends on purpose. Mindfulness is said to be purposed for purification, overcoming sorrow, staying the path of truth, and nirvana. It's claimed to be 'the only way'.

I'm on board that it's the only way, but that doesn't mean a particular approach or method is the only way. It means suffering is caused in a particular way, by craving, and purification and liberation is achieved in one way - stop craving. The meditation is hence defined as 'ardent awareness free of craving in the world'. That's very simplistic on the face of it, but the actuality is really nuanced.

I know you're 'self taught' so to speak, and mindfulness can't really be taught because awareness is 'already there' and paying attention is already our nature. They can teach a particular method such as breath awareness or whatever, but that's not what is meant by 'the only way'. Actually, a lot of methods taught in Buddhist schools contradict the underlying principle of mindfulness, so almost everything you read online is also contradictory in that way. It is a religion, after all, and religions are fundamentally misguided.

I like to get past the religious noise and depend on solely on our own self-direction. A good teacher can helpful, for sure, but for me, to follow is to be misled and you only have you own determinations to rely on. I sincerely believe if we pay attention closely and discern for ourselves with complete honestly, that's the one and only way to stay true to the path.

[wstein]

This reminds me of a spiritual/metaphysical group I went to check out long ago. It turned out to be more of a teaching/lecture situation. Abut an hour into various instruction, the leader decided we all needed to work on our mind chatter. He of course had a fool proof method to work on that, which he was going to teach us 'right now'. Without any further delay, he started. After 2-3 minutes he looked right out me with an unhappy face and said that I needed to follow his instruction if I was going to reduce the mind chatter. I said I didn't need that. He looked even more unhappy. I told him, I usually don't have mind chatter, but if it would make him happy I could start some mind chatter so he could tell me how to stop it again. Needless to say, it didn't improve his mood.