Grieving

[Starman]

Originally Posted by ayar415

Your topic is on grieving. What have you learned from such suffering? Can you share it with me so that I don't have to suffer loss of a loved one?

Suffering is in the mind, it is not to be avoided. If you love someone you will experience suffering. The human mind functions with opposites, compare and contrast, etc. The opposite of joy is pain. Opposites are identical in nature but different in degree. To not experience suffering is not to have experienced joy.

There are people who suffer who do not know they are suffering, because they have never really experienced anything but suffering. Suffering is their normal. Buddhism teaches non-attachment; indulge but don’t be attached to your indulgences. It is our innate desire nature which often brings disappointment. Psychologically, depression is the most wide spread mental disorder among humans on this planet. The only thing is how long the depression lasts.

Chronic depression is ever present and often requires medication, episodic depression comes in episodes, like on the anniversary of a tragic event, or the memory of a loss, etc. Then there is acute depression, which just about everyone on earth experiences; it comes and goes and usually does not linger too long. Acute depression can come from disappointment.

Depression can also be environmentally induced. People who are new to Northern Alaska may experience depression during months of darkness, or constant high winds can cause depression, especially if a person lives at the foothills of a mountain, etc. Certain foods that a person may eat can also effect their mood and be the impetus for depression.

The bio-medical model says that depression comes from a chemical imbalance, the social learning theory model says that depression is learned behavior, when people don’t get their way, etc. There are lots of different models that speak to the precursors of depression. Different people handle depression differently.

Loneliness does not come from being alone, loneliness comes from feeling disconnected. A person can be around other people and still be lonely. But the isolation of this pandemic has increased loneliness and also domestic violence. In my opinion the best antidote is to be creative in our daily lives and do things which stimulate us and give us a greater connection.

Most people handle depression by trying to do something that is the opposite of depression. For me, quiet meditation works. Quieting my mind which centers my feelings is how I deal with turbulent seas. I also do art work and play guitar, or dance to music. But I do not avoid confronting how I feel. Suffering, and especially depression, does many things to people. It can cause a person to want to take their life. Mood is effected by attitude, and in my opinion balance is key. The lessons that suffering teaches us are unique to each individual and what they particularly need to learn to become whole.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by asearcher

I think that we must all experience, suffer ourselves or the lessons won't be fully taught from it, where the saying comes from "walk a mile in my shoes".

I have discovered during past life memories that I was going through one particular experience of something. In this one I was standing beside someone else going through it, so it is about knowing both sides that in the end will make us whole.

Thank you for a very astute observation; yes we need to know both sides.

[ayar415]

QUOTE Post 21 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Starman

Suffering is in the mind, it is not to be avoided. If you love someone you will experience suffering. The human mind functions with opposites, compare and contrast, etc. The opposite of joy is pain. Opposites are identical in nature but different in degree. To not experience suffering is not to have experienced joy.

Your point of view is saddening. I told you that, thus far, I have not experienced suffering. And yet, I have experienced joy.

The opposites you speak of does have an element of truth. But this applies to sensory perception. It is through comparison that we can feel hot and cold, see light and darkness. Suffering is a condition in itself. I can experience a tummy ache because I know what it feels like to have no tummy ache. But I don't need to have an ailing body ever to know what it is like to feel fine.

I don't have to suffer destitution to know what a life of abundance is and savor it, do I?

[Starman]

It seems many of those who have previously experienced destitution appreciate abundance more. I grew up in abject poverty but today my cup overflows with abundance. Often I do volunteer work helping to serve meals at a soup kitchen for those who have little to nothing, this helps me to keep things in perspective. The true and only lasting wealth is within us, the only true and lasting victory is in our heart, at the core of our being. Remember, suffering is in the mind.

Human beings may have death-like experiences many times during the course of their life. For me, losing my eyesight was a death-like experience. When a person grieves they are not only grieving the loss of a loved one they may also be feeling the loss of a part of themselves. This loss of self is a death-like experience for them. Often a grieving person may say “a part of me has died” in referring to the loss of a loved one.

We experience death in many ways before we actually die and relinquish our physical body. The ways in which we experience death while we are still alive are as preparations, confronting our own mortality, and allowing us to taste loss and letting go before we lose our body and have to let go. Change is constant and grieving loss is all about dealing with the process of personal change. Life, in my opinion, is more about process than it is about who, or what, we interact with during that process.

Process is journey, the rest of it is just the content of that journey. A healthy person experiences a wide range of emotions, including anger, sadness, and yes joy as well. It is not so much what we experience as it is how we react, or respond, to our experiences. When we experience something it means that we have connected with it. Experiences may involve all of our senses, our mind, and the depths of our feelings. Experiences are the great teacher in life. At our core, we are life. Life is not what we do rather life is what we are. Life on a journey learning from itself. Learn well and there may never be any lack.

[pixiedust]

I recently read the news of some children who died. This news often hits me harder than others. For some reason, I don't know.. well it is just sad.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by pixiedust

I recently read the news of some children who died. This news often hits me harder than others. For some reason, I don't know.. well it is just sad.

We often think of children who die as their life being cut short just as they started to begin their earthly journey.
It also reflects on us, who may have had a much longer earthly journey than those children.

But the biggest impact is that of innocence being killed. The death of innocence is also grieved by adults who lose
their own innocence. Innocence is sweet and precious. The death of a child destroys that sweet and preciousness.

Hug yourself if there is no one else around for you to hug.

[Starman]

It was nine years ago, this week, when a guy killed 20-children at Sandy Hook Elementary School,
located in Newtown, Connecticut. The children that were murdered were between six and seven
years old. There were also 6-adults that were murdered in that school shooting. People are grieving
during the anniversary of this tragedy.

[ayar415]

QUOTE Post 24 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Starman

We experience death in many ways before we actually die and relinquish our physical body.

Given your life experience in the presence of people who died, you do have authority on the topic of death and dying.

I, on the other hand, can only use reason to engage you on his subject. I contend that while death of the body (which you have observed countless times) does exist and its death throes can be experienced, death of our consciousness cannot be experienced.

My reasoning is this:

Consciousness can seem to vanish when sleep occurs. We can always attest to the number of hours consciousness has disappeared, while we had slept, when we wake up to look at the time on the clock.

Death of the body is final. Death of consciousness cannot be experienced. No experiencer of consciousness can affirm its termination without coming back to life to do it.

What do you say?

[Starman]

I hear what you are saying but I have a different perspective. Consciousness does not disappear when we sleep. People dream while they are asleep, that is a form of consciousness, and lots of people have experienced being wide awake in their dreams while they slept and they knew that they were dreaming. It is your body that sleeps not your consciousness. The physical body has a life of its own, and we have a symbiotic relationship with our physical body.

I worked in the medical field for 21-years and then the counseling and teaching professions for 21-years, although I do not consider myself an authority on anything. When I worked in the medical field I spoke with patients who died, were pronounced dead, and later woke up and explained how they floated above the operating room table witnessing the efforts doctors were taking to save their lives. Also I have been doing quiet meditation for more than 40-years and have had undeniable experiences myself where my awareness left my physical body and viewed a dynamic existence beyond this physical world.

People who woke up in the morgue after being pronounced dead, often told me of some incredible stories. I also used to hang out with a group of people in Denver, Colorado who all of us meditated on inner silence and had fantastic experiences beyond the physical. Medicine has a two tier death assignment, one is brain dead, where a person has little to no brain activity, they are basically in a coma, and are kept alive by machines. The second tier is clinical death, which is when the heart stops beating, and these people can also be kept alive by machines as long as there is no damage to vital organs.

There are lots of levels to consciousness, an anesthesiologist who puts patients asleep right before surgery are familiar with different states of consciousness, i.e. disconnected consciousness, connected consciousness, etc. Consciousness exists on a very fine level, much finer than the dense experience which we are used to in physical everyday life. Consciousness is finer than open space and in its unfettered natural state it is lighter than air, therefore some people do say that it “disappears” during sleep, or I have heard people say that they did not experience anything in meditation. Silence has a very thick and rich presence; this is my experience.

There is more to consciousness than science currently understands. But you do not have to prove these things to anyone but yourself. This is not an objective science project, and it is not merely belief either. The out-of-body experience feels more real than the experience of human life in a physical body; in fact when a person has an out-of-body experience human life seems like a faint dream. Life transcends human reasoning.

[ayar415]

QUOTE Post 29 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Starman

I worked in the medical field for 21-years and then the counseling and teaching professions for 21-years, although I do not consider myself an authority on anything.

Don't be modest, Starman. Based on your testimony, you are an authority on death, dying and grieving. I would rather have you, instead of a Catholic priest or chaplain, by my side when my body intimates to me its need to expire.

Death, I surmise, can be a beautiful thing and not something to be feared. To me, everything in life is beautiful. It has to be because everything about it is magical; everything except the suffering we bring upon ourselves: the wars and the poverty.

Suffering is so unnecessary. Why must we hurt each other, Starman? You owe me an answer. You, who have suffered so much and have been a witness to so much human suffering, must have an answer. Come on, man. Give me your best shot.