Intriguing "scientific" study on Mystical Experiences

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

This raises the obvious intriguing question. When one reaches a certain level of understanding the Reality, what does one do at that point?



In any case, the key question here is what does one do once one has certain realizations. Does one pursue the "Path of Freedom" or the "Path of Humanity" in whatever way one interprets those terms?

If you don’t see life as a path, but rather an experience that has infinite ways to experience and realize yourself, then you won’t be thinking about either, but rather continuing to live as the realisations in whatever way and way life takes you.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 50 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by inavalan

The author mentions there, and elsewhere in his article, significant discrepancies between some subjects' self-assessments vs. the way they were perceived by others.

Are these discrepant self-assessments delusional? If what the subject perceives to be is different from others' perceptions, is that a delusion?

You raised such a compelling point that I decided to re-read the "Stress and PNSE" section once again before responding to your question. You reported the situation accurately as, according to the study, the doctor's perception of peace differed significantly from his girlfriend's perception of him as being stressed to at least some degree. That is an obvious problem with self-reporting subjective input in interviews of this nature.

Is this a delusion or not? Frankly, it's difficult to answer that question without more input. However, since I have a postgraduate degree in clinical psychology social work with an internship as a therapist at Coney Island Psychiatric, I do have a few comments.

First of all, it's amazing that the author conducted 6-12 hour interviews with subjects and yet didn't notice any inconsistencies in the doctor's self-reporting. That is one thing that a skilled interviewer looks for in interviews of this nature. If the author was doing family therapy (which she wasn't), she would have brought the two together to resolve the discrepancy. Hence , we may never know whose position was closer to the reality ... perhaps the reality is somewhere in between.

However, let's review the situation analytically:

1. The doctor was reportedly at "location 2", which is near the beginning of the continuum. Hence, although he may have had a PNSE experience, he MIGHT not be fully established in that transcendental state. Hence, he could be shaken out of it so it's very possible that he wasn't at peace as his girlfriend reported.

2. The doctor's father had just died and his sister died shortly thereafter. The study indicates that the doctor was also having a significant issue with one of his children. Hence, there are obvious significant stressors in the doctor's life. That could easily have been on his mind and hence he might not have been paying much attention to his girlfriend and that could have impacted her perspective.

3. In an advanced group therapy class I attended, it was mentioned that running men's groups is one of the most difficult groups in many instances. The reason given was that many men have a "macho image" to maintain and hence won't admit to problems since they consider it a sign of weakness. That might apply to this doctor's case as I don't know what image he projected to others. However, if he projected an image of peace and masculine-in-control, he might not have been able to tell others that he was having problems of this nature. Of course, it's also possible that he's in denial and really thinks that he is holding up well. It's also possible that he wants to "put on a happy face" to help him through this very difficult time.

There are so many possibilities in this case that it's virtually impossible (with the limited information available)to determine if he is delusional, in denial, putting on a happy face, or actually far more peaceful than his girlfriend suspects. My GUESS is that the truth is somewhere in between for a wide variety of reasons as noted above.

In short, I can't give you an answer to your very valid question with the limited information available. In a therapeutic venue, one would approach the situation tactfully. "I'm confused. You (the doctor) are saying this and your girlfriend is saying something else. Please help me to understand what's really going on."

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by JustBe

If you don’t see life as a path, but rather an experience that has infinite ways to experience and realize yourself, then you won’t be thinking about either, but rather continuing to live as the realisations in whatever way and way life takes you.

Like yourself, I have walked the "pathless path" and view life as "an experience that has infinite ways to experience and realize yourself".

However, the study did notice certain identifiable patterns with people who have had PNSE experiences, as noted in my previous post.

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...2&postcount=45

That part of the study captured my imagination and roused my curiosity regarding how others felt about this and whether they saw such tendencies themselves.

My sense is that, for most people, there is a combination of "Path of Freedom" and "Path of Humanity" tendencies in everyone. Looking back on my own life, I did volunteer work consistently for over 40 years while working in corporate America and then did a few years as a supervisor in Adult Protective Services and Child Preventive Services. This period seems predominantly "Path of Humanity" (using the report's terminology) even though I traveled throughout the world and enjoyed the "Path of Freedom" by experiencing everything that commanded my attention.

As I get older, I gravitate towards the "Path of Freedom" and avoid the limelight and organized activities/responsibilities though I can get intensely involved with people who are intensely involved in the process of spiritual discovery. Situations have "just happened" in which I have spoken spontaneously to large groups of people in various settings (Christian congregationalist church, Taoist assembly, an assembly in the hall of the Grand Islamic Shaik of Jordan, etc.) but these exceptions to my privacy were unexpected and definitely unplanned events on the "Path of Humanity".

Having responded as you did, I will rephrase the question. What are you doing now in your life with your spiritual understanding? Overall, IN ACTUALITY AS IT IS NOW, does your life look more like the "Path of Freedom" or the "Path of Humanity" or some combination thereof as somewhat defined in the study?

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

... In a therapeutic venue, one would approach the situation tactfully. "I'm confused. You (the doctor) are saying this and your girlfriend is saying something else. Please help me to understand what's really going on."

I think that the difficulty is that the subject honestly and without any doubt perceived himself, his state and behavior reflecting it, opposite than others did, both his interviewer and his girlfriend (interviewed by the assistant).

I don't think a discussion would've solved anything, because the subject's honest self-perception was caused by his beliefs, both conscious and unconscious.

This attracted my attention because for quite a long while I frequented a couple of non-dualism forums, and I was exposed to very strong convictions. It is also the case we painfully have experienced, more strikingly especially lately, with opposite points of view passionately and honestly held, where no reasonable dialogue could take place.

This made me wonder how can one differentiate in himself, and in others what is true from what isn't.

The only solution, satisfactory to one's self only, is to rely on one's inner source of knowledge and guidance, but only if he is capable to leave aside all his beliefs and expectation, because otherwise he'll filter out what contradicts, and keep even manufacture supporting proof.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

This raises the obvious intriguing question. When one reaches a certain level of understanding the Reality, what does one do at that point?

in my view this is the question each of us asks whenever we set the overall 'goal' for our life. The common answer on achieving whatever aim one has is, is, one decides to rest (sometimes in 'happily ever after'), one declines, then one dies.

this is why I have been so hesitant to set goals for what i should achieve in this lifetime... wanting to live rather than explicitly seeking my own death...

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

in my view this is the question each of us asks whenever we set the overall 'goal' for our life. The common answer on achieving whatever aim one has is, is, one decides to rest (sometimes in 'happily ever after'), one declines, then one dies.

this is why I have been so hesitant to set goals for what i should achieve in this lifetime... wanting to live rather than explicitly seeking my own death...

It does indeed seem that there is a point at which one no longer has any significant "goals" to pursue on this earth plane. One can then rest, as you duly indicated and simply reflect on the nature of the Reality on the earth plane before departing. While this may outwardly appear to others as physical death, my sense is that life continues in some form even after the physical body is dropped. For one who practices "dying before death", the transition is reportedly seamless.

Buddhists refer to such entities as "Non-Returners" as there is no longer any "unfinished business" or anything else to move one to return.

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=32361

I saw your post last night and have been thinking about it and "rest" since then.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 54 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by inavalan

I don't think a discussion would've solved anything, because the subject's honest self-perception was caused by his beliefs, both conscious and unconscious.

This attracted my attention because for quite a long while I frequented a couple of non-dualism forums, and I was exposed to very strong convictions.

The only solution, satisfactory to one's self only, is to rely on one's inner source of knowledge and guidance, but only if he is capable to leave aside all his beliefs and expectation, because otherwise he'll filter out what contradicts, and keep even manufacture supporting proof.

Regarding the example you gave from the study, you are assuming that the doctor was articulating an "honest self-perception" and also that his girlfriend was reflecting an "honest self-perception". That is not necessarily a valid assumption as it is well known with group therapists that men often present a "macho masculine image" and thus hide anything that might be perceived as a weakness. Please re-read what I wrote as my sense is that further interviews could have cleared up the issue that your raised.

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...2&postcount=52


I too have frequented some non-duality forums where participants have voiced very strong convictions. In many cases, there are subtle hints that, while they may be well-read and can regurgitate well, they have not experienced non-duality to any significant degree. They do, however, understand it intellectually.

Your closing statement is right on target. The ultimate "guru" is indeed one's inner Self as long as one is PURE and one's clear vision is not cloud by personal/cultural influences.

NOTE: I was very careful to quote ONLY three sentences albeit, in your case, somewhat long sentences.

[JustBe]

@Still waters, I haven’t read the article in full.. but I’ll try to explain my point again.

Like all streams of life, paths, realisations, people live through their ‘piece’ as they come to know and realize themselves. As an example, I notice empaths and sensitives chose a path connected to humanity, many of those carry a healer archetype that serves others as they awaken. I’m one of those, but less so now. It’s still a part of me realized through ‘self healing’ but it’s not an ‘essential’ need to do anything in this way, but it serves as that stream is required for myself or others. The path of freedom also played out as a whole context of ‘being me’ understanding my true self beyond roles or ideas I should or have to be following a path. The path of freedom, means I’m aware of myself as all aspects I am, I am no longer contained by others in me, so my freedom serves humanity regardless. Wherever I am, I am ..as I am and know myself to be realized, I take that into life everywhere I go and live my life. So humanity receives through both anyway.


The study obviously is focusing on two streams that do arise through processors and differences in awakening, but as I see this, understanding life and how it can be opens up more choices with awareness of those realisations. In the awakenings, one is often activated to become aware of more that just themselves alone. Many take up a path of service during awakenings that support others, they naturally want to give back those realisations. That seems to be a natural follow on. A nurse who studies and learns her craft gives back to the sick, so she is no different in her choice of path to serve humanity.

I think personality and archetype play a role in the choice of the two as well.

The way in which the path is chosen seems to be reflected through the archetype more so, as I see this.


I think both paths are significant through awakening as an overall integrated understanding and awareness and whatever creative choice in life you choose, if it’s authentic and integrated into being, you really don’t need to worry about roles or paths anymore..

If your aware and clear living through your being you understand your a continuum of life that can be enjoyed through all your realisations that you know directly as you.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 58 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustBe

I notice empaths and sensitives chose a path connected to humanity, many of those carry a healer archetype that serves others as they awaken.

The path of freedom, means I’m aware of myself as all aspects I am, I am no longer contained by others in me, so my freedom serves humanity regardless.


I think personality and archetype play a role in the choice of the two as well.

What an awesome insightful post. Although administrative guidelines limit the amount of information that one can quote here, I can provide a link so that others can easily read your post in it's entirety.

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...7&postcount=58

I agree with you that "personality and archetype (both) play a role in the choice of the two (Path of Freedom and Path of Humanity) as well" with one or the other dominating depending on the situation in the moment.

What more can I add? You've said it quite well.

[Still_Waters]

There was another part of the study that caught my attention.

"Those who experienced a shift from earlier locations on the continuum to later locations reported that former certainties and their associated experiences fell way. For example, Christian participants who underwent a transition from location 3 to Location 4 lost their sense of Christ, God, and/or the Holy Spirit and experienced a profound change in the certainty they had previously derived from that ongoing experience. A new and deeper level of certainty often accompanied each shift. "

As in the case of my Christian friends who have experienced PNSEs, there is indeed less talk of "God" and "Holy Spirit" and "Christ" even though they will reference "God Consciousness" (as I do) when referring to a particular perspective beyond it all.

Suddenly, all the dogmatic "certainties" that once seemed so important no longer are even part of one's vocabulary .... except when one is talking to others in the language that we ourselves may once have used. One becomes quieter and quieter as "a new and deeper level of certainty often accompanied each shift" in location. One still remembers the location where one spoke of "duality and non-duality", Jesus and Krishna and Buddha and other ideals, ego and ahamkara, and so on. They become fading memories in one's daily life though one can still delight in the stories and the various philosophies when interacting with others who are understandably still enchanted by such things.