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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #21  
Old 25-03-2021, 08:42 PM
utopiandreamchild utopiandreamchild is offline
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Suffering is caused by negative energy. We suffer because we have negative energy attachments. Being positive is the only way out. Healthy mind, healthy body. Easy. Amen
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Life is measured by how much one loves. The more love one has, the more abundant life is. Amen
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  #22  
Old 27-03-2021, 09:35 PM
Mak6831 Mak6831 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
The realisation of Oneness is more than just the dropping of the illusion of manifestation. It is a complete surrender, and at the moment of surrender we enter a state of pure emptiness. We then discover that this emptiness pervades all manifestation, without limitation, and this emptiness is our true nature. This emptiness is also fullness, because nothing can be added to it and nothing can be taken away from it.

This emptiness is experienced as an unchanging state of one thing everywhere. Before the moment of realisation this emptiness is unknown to us in our limited forms. After the moment of realisation this emptiness is our daily ever-present reality.

Just an alternative view.

Peace

I think I agree with you from a relative stand point, but isnt act of the surrendering a mere illusion also? and lastly who is doing the discovering?

Just a question, im not trying to discredit your answer! would like to know if im missing something
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  #23  
Old 29-03-2021, 01:39 AM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mak6831
... but isnt act of the surrendering a mere illusion also? and lastly who is doing the discovering?

The difficulty with this approach is that it renders all discussion pointless. If we regard surrender as an illusion then we also accept that you and I are illusions and the question is an illusion and this forum is an illusion and there is no-one present to ask or answer anything.

There is the absolute approach which says all manifestation is an illusion, and then there is the relative approach which accepts that while it may all be an illusion, we still have to deal with manifestation on a practical level.

And while we are in the worlds of form, we have to deal with form. So you may tell yourself that your car (if you have one) is an illusion, but you still fill it up with illusory petrol. You may say that your job (if you have one) is an illusion, but you still go out to work and do what is necessary to get your pay at the end of the month.

Even Ramana Maharshi, who no doubt knew all about the illusory nature of form, still probably ate his illusory breakfast in the morning and visited his illusory bathroom, just like the rest of us.

So saying that surrender is a mere illusion done by someone who is not actually present is fine if you have already realised the absolute. But if we are stuck in the relative then surrender is an actual event within the relative done by someone who is very much present.

The mental concepts of Oneness and illusion are not the same as the realisation of Oneness and illusion.

Peace
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  #24  
Old 29-03-2021, 06:58 AM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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surrender emptiness

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
An alternative view is that realisation does exist and is experienced as an actual event at a particular moment in time.

If we only know duality then all concepts of Oneness are just ideas in our head. Whatever reality we experience is based in duality.

The realisation of Oneness is more than just the dropping of the illusion of manifestation. It is a complete surrender, and at the moment of surrender we enter a state of pure emptiness. We then discover that this emptiness pervades all manifestation, without limitation, and this emptiness is our true nature. This emptiness is also fullness, because nothing can be added to it and nothing can be taken away from it.

This emptiness is experienced as an unchanging state of one thing everywhere. Before the moment of realisation this emptiness is unknown to us in our limited forms. After the moment of realisation this emptiness is our daily ever-present reality.

Just an alternative view.

Peace

Points raised here are superb and very much helpful .

Just to add to the points raised for more clarification , people at times fear the words like 'surrender' . Many a times people fill we surrender to someone with gun pointing to our head and we surrendering is something very dreadful situation and thereby they abhor the 'surrender' to God . So 'surrender' here means more 'devotion' with love to God just like lovers in a romantic situation let the lover play or parents playing with their little kids allowing kids even to kick or even slap the parent in the play. So the key word here is love / devotion. In Hinduism its called Bhakti (process of staying connected /associated with God ). We need to view the word 'surrender' in this light.

Further many a times people dread the word emptiness . Above post rightly mentions emptiness is fullness . Just to stress this point further Emptiness is emptiness of material differences of manifestations and thereby resulting separation which realizes the fullness / wholeness of underlying common unifying factor .

As long as there is life the duality and resulting separation is going to be there and there is no need for arbitrarily discarding those differences . The need is to increase our vision and ability to see the underlying commonality and act accordingly with love which pierces the veil of separation and creates joy for all in the play called life.

This is gradual and evolutionary and possible only with continuity , persistence ,perseverance , intelligence , faith ,honesty and hardwork.
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  #25  
Old 29-03-2021, 06:14 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
Points raised here are superb and very much helpful .

Just to add to the points raised for more clarification , people at times fear the words like 'surrender' . Many a times people fill we surrender to someone with gun pointing to our head and we surrendering is something very dreadful situation and thereby they abhor the 'surrender' to God . So 'surrender' here means more 'devotion' with love to God just like lovers in a romantic situation let the lover play or parents playing with their little kids allowing kids even to kick or even slap the parent in the play. So the key word here is love / devotion. In Hinduism its called Bhakti (process of staying connected /associated with God ). We need to view the word 'surrender' in this light.

Further many a times people dread the word emptiness . Above post rightly mentions emptiness is fullness . Just to stress this point further Emptiness is emptiness of material differences of manifestations and thereby resulting separation which realizes the fullness / wholeness of underlying common unifying factor .

As long as there is life the duality and resulting separation is going to be there and there is no need for arbitrarily discarding those differences . The need is to increase our vision and ability to see the underlying commonality and act accordingly with love which pierces the veil of separation and creates joy for all in the play called life.

This is gradual and evolutionary and possible only with continuity , persistence ,perseverance , intelligence , faith ,honesty and hardwork.

Thanks, HITESH SHAH. You are right - people may not like words such as surrender and emptiness, because in everyday life surrender has connotations of weakness and helplessness, while emptiness has connotations of something bleak and meaningless.

Whereas on the spiritual journey surrender is the willingness to let go of that which is small and limited in order to experience a greater reality. And as you say, love is the key to surrender. And emptiness is that state without qualities which allows all things to be, which is our own nature.

Peace
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  #26  
Old 31-03-2021, 06:00 PM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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emptiness / surrender

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
people may not like words such as surrender and emptiness, because in everyday life surrender has connotations of weakness and helplessness, while emptiness has connotations of something bleak and meaningless.

Whereas on the spiritual journey surrender is the willingness to let go of that which is small and limited in order to experience a greater reality. And as you say, love is the key to surrender. And emptiness is that state without qualities which allows all things to be, which is our own nature.

Peace
Many including myself fear & hence dislike certain terms like these . So I thought a clarification can be better for us.
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  #27  
Old 01-04-2021, 08:01 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mak6831
... and lastly who is doing the discovering?

Going back to the question of who is doing the discovering, this is worth considering further.

A common idea, especially in the Neo-Advaita community, is that there is no-one present, no-one to realise anything, and nothing to realise since we are already that state.

The problem with this approach is that it denies the reality of peoples' everyday experience. For most people there is definitely someone present, and that someone does not live in a state of realisation. That someone may desire realisation, hence the popularity of Neo-Advaita which suggests that realisation is available to anyone and can happen at any moment. But the intellectual arguments which people repeat are nothing to do with actual realisation.

So who is doing the discovering? We can consider a human as consciousness which may function on three separate levels.
  1. Consciousness identified with personality expressing through a physical body. This seems to be where most people are at. Consciousness regards itself as a separate someone and seeks attainment.
  2. Consciousness resting in itself, knowing itself to be the silent observer of personality in physical expression, and personality itself is just a collection of habitual patterns.
  3. Consciousness resting in the Self or Being, seeing the unchanging Self present in all things.
If consciousness is identified with personality then there is someone who seeks, someone who wants to discover. Surrender is the letting go of our identification with personality and all ideas of seeking and discovering. It is consciousness identified with personality which seeks and consciousness free from personality identification which discovers.

Peace
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