What right do you have? - Page 8

inavalan · #71 02-05-2020, 01:27 AM

Quote:

1)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ketzer

What is the "thought" cause the predates and manifests the lunatic?
How would one address this cause?

2)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ketzer

Are there no natural rights, that even if others fail to respect them, we still have?
We do all think we are right, but is there no objective truth to what is right?
You may be free to do what you like and think right, but should you be if you are not the only one to have to deal with the consequences?

I think the US is both a democracy and a republic, or rather a democratic republic with a constitutional underpinning or foundation. It became successful for a number of reasons, but like all democracies will eventually fail. Communism, now there is a beautiful idea....in theory....not so much in practice. It seems all forms of human government are plagued by the shortcomings of those who are governed. Democracies claim their right to govern comes from the governed and claim to ensure those rights, but as we see, determining and balancing all those rights gets complicated and messy.
I did understand why you responded to SM with your assertions, yet they proved useful to the overall discussion none the less. I think it is a mistake that both some spiritual and some political ideologies make. We are all individuals as well as part of a greater whole, the trick is to be able to satisfy the needs of both at the same time. Perhaps this is a greater truth of the universe as well, perhaps that is one thing we are here to learn?
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3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ketzer

Have you been peeking at my medical records? Sure I might be a lunatic, some might say it is even more likely then not. But if I think I might be a lunatic, should I still do what my intuition says?.. the consequences could be difficult to support.

Do we not lock the lunatic up because we fear they will do whatever they want and we will suffer the consequences?

1) For example the current pandemic is, as the ww2 was, caused by thought energy that accumulated to such a potential that, when eventually manifested, a tragedy ensued. In the "lunatic" example, whatever your thoughts and emotions are, they will make the difference of being among the lunatic's victims, or not. Your thoughts, which determine that, predate whatever happens to you.

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2) The main practical problem with your rights decided by others, is that they're inherently tainted by those deciders' beliefs. If you live in US, in China, in Iran, today, 50 years ago, 500 years ago, it makes for very big differences in what is right and what isn't.

Surely, society sets restrictions for its desired functioning, using whatever criteria are deemed important.

We are individuals, as well as members of groups, but you and I probably differ in what we mean by that. Each entity manifested on this Earth as an individual human being isn't truly affected by and doesn't need any of those restriction for the good of any group, but this is beyond the scope of this discussion.

I will skip the other points of this quote.

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3) In case you didn't joke about me calling you names ..., occasionally, I use the generic you:

Generic you. In English grammar and in particular in casual English, generic, impersonal, or indefinite you is the use of the pronoun you to refer to an unspecified person, as opposed to its standard use as the second-person pronoun.

You should always do whatever your intuition tells you to do, knowing that you might experience the consequences of your acts. It doesn't automatically happen. But, you'll automatically experience the consequences of your thoughts.

"One man's lunatic is another man's saint or holy martyr." (or chosen political candidate)

#72 02-05-2020, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inavalan

1) For example the current pandemic is, as the ww2 was, caused by thought energy that accumulated to such a potential that, when eventually manifested, a tragedy ensued. In the "lunatic" example, whatever your thoughts and emotions are, they will make the difference of being among the lunatic's victims, or not. Your thoughts, which determine that, predate whatever happens to you.

---------------------

2) The main practical problem with your rights decided by others, is that they're inherently tainted by those deciders' beliefs. If you live in US, in China, in Iran, today, 50 years ago, 500 years ago, it makes for very big differences in what is right and what isn't.

Surely, society sets restrictions for its desired functioning, using whatever criteria are deemed important.

We are individuals, as well as members of groups, but you and I probably differ in what we mean by that. Each entity manifested on this Earth as an individual human being isn't truly affected by and doesn't need any of those restriction for the good of any group, but this is beyond the scope of this discussion.

I will skip the other points of this quote.

---------------------

3) In case you didn't joke about me calling you names ..., occasionally, I use the generic you:

Generic you. In English grammar and in particular in casual English, generic, impersonal, or indefinite you is the use of the pronoun you to refer to an unspecified person, as opposed to its standard use as the second-person pronoun.

You should always do whatever your intuition tells you to do, knowing that you might experience the consequences of your acts. It doesn't automatically happen. But, you'll automatically experience the consequences of your thoughts.

"One man's lunatic is another man's saint or holy martyr." (or chosen political candidate)

Yes, I was joking, and I expected that you were being hypothetical. That said, I really don't mind being called or thought a lunatic, it makes me feel like I am being accepted and I am like everyone else. This idea that one's thoughts create one's reality. I have a very similar view point but more from a base level of consciousness, I tend to see thoughts and feelings as part of the experience of that created reality. This makes one wonder what one does with that reality once they realize it. I think perhaps one just dives in and goes swimming as one has probably filled the pool for that reason in the first place. Sorry if it seems like I keep trying to splash you and everyone else in the face every time someone tells me something, but I tend to assume we are all in the pool for the same reasons. Exploring things like perhaps the intractable topic of this thread being perhaps one such reason among many. So on a discussion forum such as this I figure a bit of chlorine in the eyes and water in the mouth is part of the learning experience. As long as no one is trying to drown me or just hanging around to pee in the pool, I figure it is all good fun and learning.

inavalan · #73 02-05-2020, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ketzer

Yes, I was joking, and I expected that you were being hypothetical. That said, I really don't mind being called or thought a lunatic, it makes me feel like I am being accepted and I am like everyone else. This idea that one's thoughts create one's reality. I have a very similar view point but more from a base level of consciousness, I tend to see thoughts and feelings as part of the experience of that created reality. This makes one wonder what one does with that reality once they realize it. I think perhaps one just dives in and goes swimming as one has probably filled the pool for that reason in the first place. Sorry if it seems like I keep trying to splash you and everyone else in the face every time someone tells me something, but I tend to assume we are all in the pool for the same reasons. Exploring things like perhaps the intractable topic of this thread being perhaps one such reason among many. So on a discussion forum such as this I figure a bit of chlorine in the eyes and water in the mouth is part of the learning experience. As long as no one is trying to drown me or just hanging around to pee in the pool, I figure it is all good fun and learning.

This reality creation is the creation of a perception. Using the language of your five senses, it presents you a symbolical representation of a section of the wider reality. We don't have any other contact with our perceived realities (awake, dream, imagination) than through our senses focused in those realities.

Think about a computer generated reality in which you get completely engrossed. That has no "physical reality": you see, hear, you might even have some kinesthetic perception of the symbolic representation of bits scrambled by a computer program. Those running bits, which are actual moving particles, are the reality you can't directly perceive and understand, so you need something to convert that reality into your perception language. That is done by your subconscious.

#74 02-05-2020, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inavalan

This reality creation is the creation of a perception. Using the language of your five senses, it presents you a symbolical representation of a section of the wider reality. We don't have any other contact with our perceived realities (awake, dream, imagination) than through our senses focused in those realities.

Think about a computer generated reality in which you get completely engrossed. That has no "physical reality": you see, hear, you might even have some kinesthetic perception of the symbolic representation of bits scrambled by a computer program. Those running bits, which are actual moving particles, are the reality you can't directly perceive and understand, so you need something to convert that reality into your perception language. That is done by your subconscious.

Yes, I envision something very similar, but the particles themselves are also part of the created reality. Sort of like the matrix without the computers or anything else 'physical' behind it. Just consciousness using information to create the forms within itself, be they fields, particles, atoms, or cats. With nothing we call real being built of anything we normally think of as real the definition of real becomes somewhat up for grabs and even just 'yes' becomes an acceptable answer to the question of 'What is real?" To circle back to the topic of the thread, the same sort of vanishing act goes on when one looks for one's self within. I, as a human being, become an emergent phenomenon of metal processes underlain by physical processes which are underlain by the nonphysical quantum realm of information about the probability of events. This ethereal ephemeral me, that feels itself to be real, even though everything that makes it up would not normally be thought of as real or me, then asks "What is right, and what is wrong?" and "What rights do I have and what are their limitations?" Which seems like a crazy question to ask coming from one who can't even answer the question 'Who wants to know?'. Nevertheless, such questions seem to be one underlying reason consciousness is creating this who wonderful crazy awful and beautiful system in the first place.

inavalan · #75 02-05-2020, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ketzer

Yes, I envision something very similar, but the particles themselves are also part of the created reality. Sort of like the matrix without the computers or anything else 'physical' behind it. Just consciousness using information to create the forms within itself, be they fields, particles, atoms, or cats. With nothing we call real being built of anything we normally think of as real the definition of real becomes somewhat up for grabs and even just 'yes' becomes an acceptable answer to the question of 'What is real?" To circle back to the topic of the thread, the same sort of vanishing act goes on when one looks for one's self within. I, as a human being, become an emergent phenomenon of metal processes underlain by physical processes which are underlain by the nonphysical quantum realm of information about the probability of events. This ethereal ephemeral me, that feels itself to be real, even though everything that makes it up would not normally be thought of as real or me, then asks "What is right, and what is wrong?" and "What rights do I have and what are their limitations?" Which seems like a crazy question to ask coming from one who can't even answer the question 'Who wants to know?'. Nevertheless, such questions seem to be one underlying reason consciousness is creating this who wonderful crazy awful and beautiful system in the first place.

To what end do you want answers to those questions? Probably, in order to know how to act.

To me the most important question is: what am I here-now to do? This seems more limited in scope, more answerable, than who am I? why am I here? or such. It is also more practical.

The answer I have is: to practice creating reality. Now, what does this mean exactly? Just wishing? Obviously this isn't enough. Using what material and what tools? To what end?

You're actually asking your questions from a more earthly point of view. Using as point of reference me as a human, member of a group named humanity, is my behavior here-now restricted by design?

Breaking those restrictions will have undesired consequences on whoever I believe I am, or I might be?

Should I blindly or "reasonably" believe what that nice old man teaches, or that vociferous woman preaches, or any of those more ore less legendary visionaries taught? What if I pick the wrong "horse"?

What if I waste my time, and there's only what I perceive here and now with my senses? I might miss the opportunity to try something I itch to do, but I don't because of ... fear (!) of consequences.

What I do is to tap into my inner source of knowledge and guidance. Surely, I make the assumption that there is such a thing, so I am cautious. I ask questions & I get answers. I feel that I am learning.

I believe that I can trust my inner source more than any external one. I recommend this path to whoever asks. The only tool I use: self-hypnosis.

Coming back, again, to this thread's topic: I believe that there is no higher force restricting my right to do whatever I want to do; I know that there'll be consequences; & I'm following only my own judgement and intuition in deciding what to do. By the way, every time when I ask my inner guidance what to do, the answer is: whatever you want, you create your reality.

#76 03-05-2020, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inavalan

To what end do you want answers to those questions? Probably, in order to know how to act.

To me the most important question is: what am I here-now to do? This seems more limited in scope, more answerable, than who am I? why am I here? or such. It is also more practical.

The answer I have is: to practice creating reality. Now, what does this mean exactly? Just wishing? Obviously this isn't enough. Using what material and what tools? To what end?

You're actually asking your questions from a more earthly point of view. Using as point of reference me as a human, member of a group named humanity, is my behavior here-now restricted by design?

Breaking those restrictions will have undesired consequences on whoever I believe I am, or I might be?

Should I blindly or "reasonably" believe what that nice old man teaches, or that vociferous woman preaches, or any of those more ore less legendary visionaries taught? What if I pick the wrong "horse"?

What if I waste my time, and there's only what I perceive here and now with my senses? I might miss the opportunity to try something I itch to do, but I don't because of ... fear (!) of consequences.

What I do is to tap into my inner source of knowledge and guidance. Surely, I make the assumption that there is such a thing, so I am cautious. I ask questions & I get answers. I feel that I am learning.

I believe that I can trust my inner source more than any external one. I recommend this path to whoever asks. The only tool I use: self-hypnosis.

Coming back, again, to this thread's topic: I believe that there is no higher force restricting my right to do whatever I want to do; I know that there'll be consequences; & I'm following only my own judgement and intuition in deciding what to do. By the way, every time when I ask my inner guidance what to do, the answer is: whatever you want, you create your reality.

You answer the questions with many more questions. Which I think is entirely fitting because more questions is where the answers almost always lead. Perhaps following this trail of breadcrumbs is a foolish error, perhaps it ends with one in the oven, perhaps it ends with the witch in the oven, maybe it will even lead me back home, IDK. The problem is I am not yet very good at telling the difference between honest and kindly old ladies, and lying cannibalistic witches. That and like all humans, I have a bit of a sweet tooth and often consume things that look delicious, that sometimes turn out to be a bit of sweet bait, baked up by evil witches. Perhaps there is a moral to this story that I will someday understand, perhaps not?

As far as to what end do I want the answers, I expect that what I am after is the same thing Adam was after when he bit into that apple, the knowledge of good and evil. Some would say that Adam had no right to that fruit, that only God can know good and evil. But then paradoxically, they seem to go on to tell me what God says is good and what God says is evil, telling me something they say I have no right to know. Then they often follow that up with a demand that I pay tuition for a class I don't recall signing up for. They say they speak for God, but it sounds like a trick if you ask me. Sometimes I suspect they are really pythons in disguise and want to squeeze the life from me and then eat me.

There is plenty of good and evil here for me to learn from, only I am not that good at telling one from the other. I still get confused between nice old ladies and witches, and between angels and snakes. Some would say there is no difference between good and evil, that such dualism is ‘all in my head’, well then I am exploring what is in my head, hoping to understand that. There certainly seems to be a good bit of good and evil in there as well.

As to why I want this knowledge so badly, I expect that my soul is a bit lonely. It can’t seem to help its desire for its own individuality, yet it longs to part of the whole as well. How can the soul be an individual I, with all those rights of an individual, and also be part of the whole, with the duty to all that comes with that, all at the same time? How can one be separate and united at the same time? IDK, but I think that is one thing that I am here-now to figure out. I suspect it has to do with understanding what love is and what it is all about, something I remain very confused about. Anyway, I go on following a trail of breadcrumbs I myself seem to be putting down to see where it leads. I don't know where it ends, but my intuition tells me to keep going, so I do.

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inavalan · #77 03-05-2020, 08:52 PM

One quick answer: I always try to do what I think is right. Also, I integrate the feedback.

Shivani Devi · #78 09-05-2020, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ketzer

What right do you have to believe what you do?
What right do you have to expect others to believe what you do?
Do those rights carry with them any responsibilities?
Does exercising those rights too freely carry any dangers?

I could say that I have both every right and yet, no right. I am learning how not to sit in judgment over myself, as that ultimately leads to second-guessing and inactivity/counterproductivity.

When I question my motives and intentions, this always seems to happen in the negative....what right would I have NOT to believe as I do?

As far as I am concerned..
1. What I believe in isn't subject to any "rights" for me to do so because it just IS.
2. What others believe is their own business and I do not care what they believe in.
3. My only responsibility is to myself, regardless of any right for me to be so.
4. There is absolutely no danger whatsoever according to me, although others may see that differently...and in that case, refer to answer #2..

davidsun · #79 13-05-2020, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

As far as I am concerned..
2. What others believe is their own business and I do not care what they believe in.
3. My only responsibility is to myself, regardless of any right for me to be so.

Methinks this is a 'recipe' for the 'logical' expression and experience of separation and disjointedness in the 'stream-flow' of Life.

Shivani Devi · #80 13-05-2020, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidsun

Methinks this is a 'recipe' for the 'logical' expression and experience of separation and disjointedness in the 'stream-flow' of Life.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...4&postcount=28

Just keeping with the questions asked and the title of this thread. The questions themselves would show a disjointed separation without any basis in reality, no?

Methinks it is just semantics...