Why did Christ upend the law

Originally Posted by inavalan

I have no objection to your suggestion, just how do you think you can make it happen? There are 7.8 billion people now, 328 million people in US, overwhelmingly divided and antagonized, of so many religions, levels of education, etc.. How do you see that transition happening? What can you do? What can I do? Do you think that if a Christ came, could he do it now?

I'm asking seriously.

Now now now Mr. Inavalan! Oh it's a happinin alright! I sees it Mr. Inavalan! Hallelujah, amen, praise be to Jesus, I see it happinin.

But the question perhaps is, is it happinin fast enough? That 7.8 billion people is rapidly increasing. Begging the question that if so many people keep running around being selfish and living for themselves. Concentrating on getting theirs, and not worrying about anyone who comes after them, then how long can that last before the whole thing comes crashing down around us?

What can you and I do to prevent that from happening? Maybe nothing? Maybe it is not possible, IDK.

But maybe what I should do is concentrate on not being such a big part of the problem by trying to follow the example and teachings of Jesus. Maybe even though that may not save the world in the end, and I still think it could, maybe it will still save me, from my own scarred and selfish self.

Then again, maybe the world doesn't need saving at all, maybe it is perfect exactly as it is. Maybe there are many worlds, and I just find myself in the one that best reflects who I am in the present moment. Or maybe that is all a bunch of kooky hogwash and I am just nuts. Who knows?

[Miss Hepburn]

I dunno the answer to the op's question.
But, I have comments.
Man was so stupid, (aka primitive, not really developed), that he had to have it written in stone Do not kill. C'mon.
"False law?" Obviously a needed law for the time....until it wasn't.

I happen to disagree with the Garden story and Man not having a deep
connection to the Father, God, the Creator of All That Is. (Until Jesus.)
David, Jacob, Enoch, Job...oh my.
Read Psalm 139.

Rhetorical - Do you have this understanding and depth of personal insight
[below) to know this more then with some belief
or intellectual concept or hope?
Have you exp'd this personally? And here David was an adulterer and murderer! All before Jesus arrived.

O Lord,

You understand my thought afar off.
You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.

For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.

15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
.
.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

...
And here David was an adulterer and murderer! All before Jesus arrived.....

It's OK, that was just meaningless folly ya know.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by ketzer

It's OK, that was just meaningless folly ya know.

Tell that to Uriah.

Ok so first of all I am aware of the prophecy that, I believe it was YHWH, who said he would end at the time the current covenant and bring a new one, "written on their hearts". I also think that the propecies concerning the coming of Christ were fulfilled by Jesus.

However, this doesn't explain Jesus attitude towards the law which clearly was one of disregard for it's precepts, not because he claimed it was time for a new law, which he didn't, but because he said those precepts, of stoning, not doing work on the sabbath, etc, were simply not the character of God.

Now, the law of Moses is very similar to the code of Hammurabi. We also know that the OT was composed during the Babylonian captivity. Is it possible then that the law of Moses was written by the "scribes and pharasees", and mixed with the prophecies of Christ and other religious texts, so as to create, in effect, "Babylon the Great"?

[Miss Hepburn]

Not being a Bible scholar, nor well versed in Rev...I had to look up what Babylon the Great was...

*Babylon the Great, described in the book of Revelation, is the world’s collective body of false religions, which God rejects.
Although those religions differ in many respects, in one way or another they all lead people away from the worship of the true God, Jehovah.​

Originally Posted by 1337_d00d

However, this doesn't explain Jesus attitude towards the law which clearly was one of disregard for it's precepts, not because he claimed it was time for a new law, which he didn't, but because he said those precepts, of stoning, not doing work on the sabbath, etc, were simply not the character of God.

Now, the law of Moses is very similar to the code of Hammurabi. We also know that the OT was composed during the Babylonian captivity. Is it possible then that the law of Moses was written by the "scribes and pharasees", and mixed with the prophecies of Christ and other religious texts, so as to create, in effect, "Babylon the Great"?

1337_dOOd,

The entirety of Matthew 23 reveals much of the attitude of Jesus towards the law. It is a castigation of the laws that the Pharisees had promulgated(the 613 laws). Matthew 23:4....speaking of the Pharisees...."For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders...."

These 'burdens' are the multitude of laws which they developed. Contrast this to Matthew 11:28-30......Jesus says: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Jesus is speaking of the burdens of the developed law. In a way He is saying step away from the dogma of religion. When he says his burden is light....think of the simplicity of his 2 great commandments. In regards to 'fulfilling' the Law.....Jesus would have been referring explicitly to the written Torah.......not the oral Torah and certainly not the Talmud. Jesus not only fulfilled the Law but he expanded it......for example redefining 'neighbor' as those beyond the tribe.....and adultery....not simply as the act of adultery but also the contemplation or desire of adultery.

Back to Matthew 23.....unfortunately the beginning verses of Matthew 23 IMO are a mistranslation and are a source of confusion. Matthew 23:2-3 reads...."The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

It should read IMO....."you must obey him(Moses) and do everything he(Moses) tells you. But do not do what they(the Pharisees) do, ..."

Otherwise it is nonsensical to speak of obeying the Pharisees who are so clearly condemned for being a 'brood of vipers'.

The two sects most often mentioned in the NT are the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Jesus found great fault with both groups. The Pharisees for their onerous laws.....the Sadducees for their faulty scriptural interpretations(they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead....nor in angels or spirits, etc.) In regards to the Sadducees they would have been more palatible to Jesus solely in regards to the law. They accepted the written Torah as law without adding any multitude of new laws.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Not being a Bible scholar, nor well versed in Rev...I had to look up what Babylon the Great was...

*Babylon the Great, described in the book of Revelation, is the world’s collective body of false religions, which God rejects.
Although those religions differ in many respects, in one way or another they all lead people away from the worship of the true God, Jehovah.​

No Babylon the Great is drunk on the blood of Jesus, prophets and saints so it leaves only one possibility of what that is. Also the woman with the 12 stars is not Israel.

Originally Posted by Molearner

Jesus is speaking of the burdens of the developed law. In a way He is saying step away from the dogma of religion. When he says his burden is light....think of the simplicity of his 2 great commandments. In regards to 'fulfilling' the Law.....Jesus would have been referring explicitly to the written Torah.......not the oral Torah and certainly not the Talmud. Jesus not only fulfilled the Law but he expanded it......for example redefining 'neighbor' as those beyond the tribe.....and adultery....not simply as the act of adultery but also the contemplation or desire of adultery.

That is a hard saying and I used to think it was impossible to fulfill, however, I notice now that sexuality consumes Energy so while physical sexual activity consumes alot of Energy, sex in thought does too but only a little. So an individual may contain 99% of this Energy but still lose and not reach the goal with that 1%. I notice also that as you contain more and more energy actually avoiding sexual thought becomes possible and I'm sure this is what Christ is saying and why the Pharasees, despite following all the laws, we're imperfect and 'dead in their sin', no less because they never knew true spirituality. So this Energy thing has alot of different references and that's the woman with the twelve stars because those who keep the testimony of Jesus are born of her and you need to be born of the Spirit see.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Now now now Mr. Inavalan! Oh it's a happinin alright! I sees it Mr. Inavalan! Hallelujah, amen, praise be to Jesus, I see it happinin.

But the question perhaps is, is it happinin fast enough? That 7.8 billion people is rapidly increasing. Begging the question that if so many people keep running around being selfish and living for themselves. Concentrating on getting theirs, and not worrying about anyone who comes after them, then how long can that last before the whole thing comes crashing down around us?

What can you and I do to prevent that from happening? Maybe nothing? Maybe it is not possible, IDK.

But maybe what I should do is concentrate on not being such a big part of the problem by trying to follow the example and teachings of Jesus. Maybe even though that may not save the world in the end, and I still think it could, maybe it will still save me, from my own scarred and selfish self.

Then again, maybe the world doesn't need saving at all, maybe it is perfect exactly as it is. Maybe there are many worlds, and I just find myself in the one that best reflects who I am in the present moment. Or maybe that is all a bunch of kooky hogwash and I am just nuts. Who knows?

Leaving the joking aside ...

As I understand it, those who are here need to be here.

If you subscribe to reincarnation: "souls" keep coming here until they don't need to anymore.

If you don't accept reincarnation: "souls" are born ignorant, and need to progress here; obviously when they pass on, "souls" aren't all at the same level of progress (hence heaven and hell constructs).

If everything were ideal here, what would happen to those "souls" that need to reincarnate, or to the newcomers? Another world would need be created for them to help them progress.

To me, it seems that this "soul" educational environment does pretty much what is supposed to do. I believe that this is like the "climate change" debate. We think that we're more than we are, both with our influence, and with our ability to steer "souls" ' education.

I think that the human society's influence has an overwhelming hypnotic effect on the "souls" making them forget why they are here, and what they are supposed to do.