Rama killing Ravana

[alphamind]

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[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Those sources being the Bhagavat Puran and the Shiv Puran.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Indian scriptures can be categorised in Shruti , smriti , purana ,agam ,aranyak in order of priority .
So when there is conflict between accounts of 2 , the former can be considered authentic . In relation to above Puran , Ramayana by Valmiki (a Smriti) is more authentic especially in historical context . Puran too have good value especially from devotional point of view . But for historical context Ramayana by Valmiki is more authentic.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Indian scriptures can be categorised in Shruti , smriti , purana ,agam ,aranyak in order of priority .
So when there is conflict between accounts of 2 , the former can be considered authentic . In relation to above Puran , Ramayana by Valmiki (a Smriti) is more authentic especially in historical context . Puran too have good value especially from devotional point of view . But for historical context Ramayana by Valmiki is more authentic.

I am also very familiar with Shruti...so with that being said,
Who was doing the "killing" and who was being "killed" then?

Aum Namah Shivaya

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I am also very familiar with Shruti...so with that being said,
Who was doing the "killing" and who was being "killed" then?

Aum Namah Shivaya

Some people like plain facts of person, place , time, context etc with least or zero editing from the person narrating it . For them historically more authentic documents are relevant . On the other hand there may be many more who like the thrill , fun , excitement , moral , message more than minute details . For them story telling like in purana (which is rich with lot of allegorical /mystical content and moral message and simple do's n dont's ) is more relevant.

To answer the question the question , divine in the name,form and body of Rama who attained pinnacle heights of spiritual development killed body of another in the name, form and body of Ravana (who too was devotee of God initially but fell from grace and started indulging in immoral activity through sheer abuse of power) .

[Renunciation]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

There is not historical truth in your observations and conclusion on alleged mistakes.
1. Rama was King . He was enlightened person (Plato's concept of philosopher king in reality ) but no spiritual teacher/Guru by any stretch of imagination . Guru should not marry is a myth there is not iota of truth . Marriage has a very high SQ . Person marrying has to RENUNCIATE all other members of opposite sex !!

2. Why Guru does not need kingdom is ok . But why he should abdicate kingdom for spirituality . He did abdicate when he was expected as per his father's orders . He did forego 2 kingdom's he won by himself . That's why we consider him God . He was able to do such things in jiffy at will which no small person will be able to do.

3. Shudra Shambuka was feigning penance and not doing his duties . For all your knowledge Rama did ate the tasted half eaten fruits/berries at the place of Shabari - a tribal woman devotee. The very Ravana he killed was son of a Brahman Rishi . So don't invoke biased irrelevant logics here.

Finally u my have heard of Kabir . What he says

गुरू गोविन्द दोऊ खड़े, काके लागूं पांय।
बलिहारी गुरू अपने गोविन्द दियो बताय

This means that Guru always points to God when place of priority is to be chosen . That is the Guru . But in so many posts of your about Guru I have not seen any single pointer to God .It's all criticising without substance and merit and nothing about any real message to think , ponder and learn .

Can you say the state of an enlightened person?

Guru is not engaged or involved in history, legends, myths or gender differences. The stage of being a Guru is completed when that Guru has a Guru and a disciple.That dharma (righteousness) has to be revealed to the disciple. That disciple has to reveal, who Guru is, to the world .

is it possible to show such a Mahathma (noble soul), who could successfully make it ?

Only through this Guru disciples relationship, one can accept the subject being shared.

Have we, who chanted the name of Rama for millions of years, got any knowledge beyond what is said in Ramayana? When Muhammedians and Jesus followers say that they are living as per the instructions recieved from The God through the messengers, common practice all around the world when someone dies among them is to bury the dead body. But what do we do? In different areas, there are different customs. Why did it happen? What does it imply? Did we follow any God's Messengers? Did we honour or respect the messages of those messengers? No.

5200 years ago Lord Krisha came to enlighten the world.He instructed

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣhyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo ‘si me (Gita 18:65)

'Always think of me, be devoted to me, worship me, and offer obeisance to me. Doing so, you will certainly come to me. This is my pledge to you, for you are very dear to me'

If we had obeyed it, would we have gone behind Rama who lived 1.7 millions years ago (17 lakhs)

Why did and do our country have to beg infront of others, even though, once we were most wealthiest and most powerful country that was able to rule the world? Because we didn't honour and obey Lord Krishna.

If we didn't understand at least this fact, we would have to float around without directions.

What we only need to know is, the way to get enlightened. That can't be attained by following those bygone God's Messengers (Great Souls) as their messages are completely adulterated and twisted. To attain that we have to follow a njaani in present time(The One who has spiritual wisdom).

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣhyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo ‘si me (Gita 18:65)

Always think of me, be devoted to me, worship me, and offer obeisance to me. Doing so, you will certainly come to me. This is my pledge to you, for you are very dear to me.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Renunciation

Can you say the state of an enlightened person?

Guru is not engaged or involved in history, legends, myths or gender differences. The stage of being a Guru is completed when that Guru has a Guru and a disciple.That dharma (righteousness) has to be revealed to the disciple. That disciple has to reveal, who Guru is, to the world .

is it possible to show such a Mahathma (noble soul), who could successfully make it ?

Only through this Guru disciples relationship, one can accept the subject being shared.

Have we, who chanted the name of Rama for millions of years, got any knowledge beyond what is said in Ramayana? When Muhammedians and Jesus followers say that they are living as per the instructions recieved from The God through the messengers, common practice all around the world when someone dies among them is to bury the dead body. But what do we do? In different areas, there are different customs. Why did it happen? What does it imply? Did we follow any God's Messengers? Did we honour or respect the messages of those messengers? No.

5200 years ago Lord Krisha came to enlighten the world.He instructed

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣhyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo ‘si me (Gita 18:65)

'Always think of me, be devoted to me, worship me, and offer obeisance to me. Doing so, you will certainly come to me. This is my pledge to you, for you are very dear to me'

If we had obeyed it, would we have gone behind Rama who lived 1.7 millions years ago (17 lakhs)

Why did and do our country have to beg infront of others, even though, once we were most wealthiest and most powerful country that was able to rule the world? Because we didn't honour and obey Lord Krishna.

If we didn't understand at least this fact, we would have to float around without directions.

What we only need to know is, the way to get enlightened. That can't be attained by following those bygone God's Messengers (Great Souls) as their messages are completely adulterated and twisted. To attain that we have to follow a njaani in present time(The One who has spiritual wisdom).

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
mām evaiṣhyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo ‘si me (Gita 18:65)

Always think of me, be devoted to me, worship me, and offer obeisance to me. Doing so, you will certainly come to me. This is my pledge to you, for you are very dear to me.

Lot of things are told . Many of it are obvious .Period of Rama is around 10000 years to the best of my knowledge.

Guru (enlightened master) is very important . But the issue is how does one decide on Guru . As by definition (as is evident in Kabir couplet above) , Guru does not advertise and he always point to God when it comes to priority and importance in all dimensions and help people with right orientation. We may see some lineage (hereditary) based gurus . It's ok but it does not deny /eliminate the functional definition of as aforesaid. If the son of a Guru does not have genuine aspects of Guru , we don't consider him Guru.

So there is real problem and dearth of real Gurus and there is problem how one recognise the Guru .

[Renunciation]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Lot of things are told . Many of it are obvious .Period of Rama is around 10000 years to the best of my knowledge.

Guru (enlightened master) is very important . But the issue is how does one decide on Guru . As by definition (as is evident in Kabir couplet above) , Guru does not advertise and he always point to God when it comes to priority and importance in all dimensions and help people with right orientation. We may see some lineage (hereditary) based gurus . It's ok but it does not deny /eliminate the functional definition of as aforesaid. If the son of a Guru does not have genuine aspects of Guru , we don't consider him Guru.

So there is real problem and dearth of real Gurus and there is problem how one recognise the Guru .

What did world get from The Guru Ramaanandh that only Kabir Das realized? Did we get anything from Kabir Das or Ramanandha Guru, which is worth receiving except the knowledge from the part of the poem below?

सब धरती कागज करूँ, लेखनी सब बनराय
सात समुंदर की मसि करूँ, गुरुगुण लिखा न जाय

Even if the whole earth is transformed into paper with all the big trees made into pens and if the entire water in the seven oceans are transformed into writing ink, even then the glories of the Guru cannot be written. So much is the greatness of the Guru

The greatest tragedy the world witnessed was, not realizing that The Lord Krishna was Guru and didn't realize, that Guru's greatness.

We guess, you understand that we are speaking from the knowledge that knows what Guru's greatness is?

We, humans, can't get the actual facts and knowledge of Krishna's time line or Rama's time line from myths and legends. Only The Guru, who is timeless and can see the time span of distant past and the future, can clarify it. So, we need to find out the Guru beyond time and space. We are talking here about such a Guru. That is Manu Smrithi (remembrance of Manu)

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Renunciation

What did world get from The Guru Ramaanandh that only Kabir Das realized? Did we get anything from Kabir Das or Ramanandha Guru, which is worth receiving except the knowledge from the part of the poem below?

सब धरती कागज करूँ, लेखनी सब बनराय
सात समुंदर की मसि करूँ, गुरुगुण लिखा न जाय

Even if the whole earth is transformed into paper with all the big trees made into pens and if the entire water in the seven oceans are transformed into writing ink, even then the glories of the Guru cannot be written. So much is the greatness of the Guru

The greatest tragedy the world witnessed was, not realizing that The Lord Krishna was Guru and didn't realize, that Guru's greatness.

We guess, you understand that we are speaking from the knowledge that knows what Guru's greatness is?

We, humans, can't get the actual facts and knowledge of Krishna's time line or Rama's time line from myths and legends. Only The Guru, who is timeless and can see the time span of distant past and the future, can clarify it. So, we need to find out the Guru beyond time and space. We are talking here about such a Guru. That is Manu Smrithi (remembrance of Manu)

In the absence of any great Guru , best Guru as u also told earlier are the ones that passed by with tremendous legacy for us to learn in the form of literature behind them. With right effort and focus we can probably get the meaning of it . The problem is that as you explained people have not understood them and if understood not followed them various reasons .

[Renunciation]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

In the absence of any great Guru , best Guru as u also told earlier are the ones that passed by with tremendous legacy for us to learn in the form of literature behind them. With right effort and focus we can probably get the meaning of it . The problem is that as you explained people have not understood them and if understood not followed them various reasons .

Our question was whether a Guru Shishya (disciple) relationship can be pointed out in the world, in which three stages were completed. That question was not answered.

Bagavat Gita clearly shows about the Guru Shishya relationship. Arjuna got it.But it was not passed onto us.So we didn't get it.

In bagavath gita it's clearly said.

na veda-yajñādhyayanair na dānair
na ca kriyābhir na tapobhir ugraiḥ
evaḿ-rūpaḥ śakya ahaḿ nṛ-loke
draṣṭuḿ tvad anyena kuru-pravīra (11:48)

Not by study of the Vedas, nor by the performance of sacrifice, rituals, or charity, nor even by practicing severe austerities, has any mortal ever seen what you have seen, O best of the Kuru warriors.BG 11.48

Gita clearly says it's never possible to attain it through scriptures or literatures.Not only that, that dharma is lost in course of time.

you are not asking question on how to restore that dharma and give to the world. and seems not interested in it. what can be done?

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Renunciation

Gita clearly says it's never possible to attain it through scriptures or literatures. Not only that, that dharma is lost in course of time.

you are not asking question on how to restore that dharma and give to the world. and seems not interested in it. what can be done?

Statement regarding Gita is self contradictory . Gita itself is a literature of special kind. And people reading it with definite focus have got the message of it in life. And there is nothing in Gita to deny scriptures .There may be preferences in comparison but that is not denial of it .

I suggest you not to be in a position of judgement about others . If u have anything great to tell others , please do so. Do not wait for others and do not ask questions to others. If others (including me ) find it leading somewhere , others will join you . People don't give much credence to anonymous pompous claims without convictions and base in reality .