The Myth of Free Will

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Greetings people. I posted this in an 'out of the way' part of the forum, but I would like to understand all of this from a Christian perspective, so any thoughts and comments on this matter will be highly appreciated and thank you.

I should preface this by saying I don't speak for Christians in general - this is just my own thoughts.

the problem is that god's will is for us to have free will. But our tendency by and large is to negate that and try to act like we don't have free will.

I know that isn't what people believe but it is true nonetheless.

It isn't that we don't have free will and it isn't that god wants to 'control' everything to the nth degree, it is that we have this mindset where we want to set things in stone and make them be immovable. Often but not always this is for social reasons.

But this tendency basically is a way to give up whatever free will we have.

How can you deliberately act in accordance with the rules for not having free will and yet to be said to have free will? And yet you didn't have to make the choice to do that! So in this way one possible consequence of having choices is the possibility of choosing not to make choices.

This is called 'death' early in the bible because a spirit that has decided to act this way might as well be as dead as you think a rock is. And from God's perspective it doesn't matter even one lick what you can be and what you can do if you've chosen to die. What is the point of even existing if you are dead?

Despite everyone loving good and hating evil, and despite our frustration that we eventually got kicked out of eden over the issue and couldn't become gods ourselves, the admonition to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil at all was intended to keep us from this sort of death. Because, it is essentially knowledge of what is good and what is evil that has us crafting limitations for ourselves.

But of course we didn't listen so the rest happened instead. (Please note: knowing that knowledge of good and evil is in god's eyes a bad thing really doesn't help because you've just learned something else about good and evil. So you will immediately make the same mistake. Which is why the issue is not addressed directly besides in the opening chapters of genesis).

Anyway god's great problem is to give us the opportunity to find out that not everything is to be written in stone and we do have choices, without feeding our desire to pretend everything IS set in stone in any permanent way.

While our plan is to try to limit our own choices his plan is to try to give us more choices.

Of the two, his plan is more likely to succeed. Well he is God and with us limiting our own choices even to the extent of not choosing to look at the reality in front of us clearly we don't have much chance

Anyway everything you see around you is a part of God's plan, even the stuff you don't particularly like.

[Shivani Devi]

What is the point of even existing if you are dead?

Good question. I only wish I knew the answer.

Thanks for clearing this all up and helping me out everybody, but I found the answer last night in another thread about Neo being given the choice by Morpheus to either consume the blue pill or the red pill to see how far the 'rabbit hole' goes - it's funny how some people just have the talent of putting things in terms I can immediately understand.

As for everything else, a song has started playing in my head now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvsMPOfblfg

[Pleroma]

Calvinists do not believe in the existence of free will and so did Saint Paul of Tarsus.


Is God’s Grace Arbitrary?
Lesson 59: Is God Unfair? (Romans 9:14-18)
Romans: God is Not Fair, Part 2 (Romans 9 – 11)
Calvinism: What does the Bible really say?
Romans 9 and Predestination
The Argument of Romans 9:14-16
God's Purpose According To Election: Paul's Argument in Romans 9

We have absolutely no free will whatsoever and our salvation is definitely not in our hands.

[Amilius777]

Free Will is real and it isn't.

Our freedom is very much dictated based on the environment, culture, parents, genetics, and nurturing of our upbringing.

It all influences our mind and a lot of the actions we perform.

In fact many people who have compulsive thoughts like most of humanity, impulsive feelings, etc are controlling half of us,.

I am a very Contemplative person. My parents aren't. They are the total opposite. They are your average middle-class consumers who think mostly on the surface about everything all day. A lot of my OCD, rituals, fears, and idiocyrancies come from experiences I've had.

But there is a big part of me and ourselves that isn't fashioned by what we received in this life because I made efforts to change, to become Aware, and pay attention to my own mind.

We as spiritual beings are limited in what we can do when incarnated. We chose this incarnation freely out of free will and what we go through is part of our Contract, so yes there is less freedom.

The more aware, enlightened, and refined the mind of a person is while incarnate, the more free will one has.

It has always been the mistake and foolishness of Evil that the more you can do whatever you want, the freer you are. It is actually the opposite. Once you start going down whichever rabbit hole of dark stuff it ends up consuming your intentions, actions, and motivations. The actions end up influencing the thoughts, the thoughts influence more bad actions, and this what I'd call "bad karma" pretty much controls you. And the person of course isn't even aware of it. That is why the most wicked people or what the Bible calls "sinners" are people who are really unconscious of themselves and their intentions. They don't go Inward because they are too afraid of what they will find.

You can tell a lot about a person's evolution or where they are at as a Human being all entirely on how they REACT to something in their life. In the Reaction is where the free will can be seen.

[dianamadalina]

Free will is like doing whatever it's in mind. My free will can lead to psychosis sometimes. There is a reason I go to church often I prefer God and trust him more than myself.

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by Pleroma

We have absolutely no free will whatsoever and our salvation is definitely not in our hands.

Pleroma,

Thanks for pointing to Romans 9-11. I read it several times but have come to a completely different understanding. I conclude that we absolutely have free will but I agree that salvation is not in our hands but in a roundabout way is a result of our possession of free will.

First of all, Paul establishes that everything is dependent on God's mercy. Romans 9:14-16:
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion"
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

God reacts in 2 ways; either mercy or compassion. Mercy, by definition, can only be extended to those who are guilty. Compassion, on the other hand, is extended to those who have suffered unjustly.

Romans 9:18........."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden".
Now what does 'harden' mean? Romans 11:7-8......
"What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.""

What is this? Eyes that could not see? I would suggest that this spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear is a description of what we call the ego. It is the separation from God. If we were one with God....(i.e. not separated).....when we looked in a mirror we would see God. Instead, thanks to the ego, we see ourselves.....separate and distinct from God.

Now for the question of free will and why we all have it. Romans 11:32......."For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
The way I understand it, is that disobedience is anything that is contrary to the Divine will. To have this capacity for disobedience we must have a will that is free from God.......i.e. our own will.......in other words what we call 'free will'. We all have that.....as a matter of fact, we are bound to it, enslaved to it. It is really funny in a way. The very thing that makes us free we use to enslave ourselves(for all have sinned, etc.) but, remarkably and consequently, it is the very thing that allows God to display his full character and essence and is that which necessitates his extension of mercy to us.

One more thing: the question of 'the elect' vs. 'the hardened'. This is where I am wildly different from the Calvinists, etc. IMO, 'the elect' are very, very few. These are those that are 'elected' by God. Anyone that is elected is chosen to officiate. God has chosen those who will have the authority to officiate. In my mind, this is severely restricted. Personally, I think the celestial hierarchy.......in other words, archangels, etc.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Pleroma,

Thanks for pointing to Romans 9-11. I read it several times but have come to a completely different understanding. I conclumde that we absolutely have free will but I agree that salvation is not in our hands but in a roundabout way is a result of our possession of free will.

First of all, Paul establishes that everything is dependent on God's mercy. Romans 9:14-16:
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion"
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

God reacts in 2 ways; either mercy or compassion. Mercy, by definition, can only be extended to those who are guilty. Compassion, on the other hand, is extended to those who have suffered unjustly.

Romans 9:18........."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden".
Now what does 'harden' mean? Romans 11:7-8......
"What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.""

What is this? Eyes that could not see? I would suggest that this spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear is a description of what we call the ego. It is the separation from God. If we were one with God....(i.e. not separated).....when we looked in a mirror we would see God. Instead, thanks to the ego, we see ourselves.....separate and distinct from God.

Now for the question of free will and why we all have it. Romans 11:32......."For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
The way I understand it, is that disobedience is anything that is contrary to the Divine will. To have this capacity for disobedience we must have a will that is free from God.......i.e. our own will.......in other words what we call 'free will'. We all have that.....as a matter of fact, we are bound to it, enslaved to it. It is really funny in a way. The very thing that makes us free we use to enslave ourselves(for all have sinned, etc.) but, remarkably and consequently, it is the very thing that allows God to display his full character and essence and is that which necessitates his extension of mercy to us.

One more thing: the question of 'the elect' vs. 'the hardened'. This is where I am wildly different from the Calvinists, etc. IMO, 'the elect' are very, very few. These are those that are 'elected' by God. Anyone that is elected is chosen to officiate. God has chosen those who will have the authority to officiate. In my mind, this is severely restricted. Personally, I think the celestial hierarchy.......in other words, archangels, etc.

When I look in the mirror I see God in me

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by sky123

When I look in the mirror I see God in me

sky123,

Then you should be grateful if you have overcome/are overcoming the hold of the ego......:)

[Molearner]

I don't feel that this topic has been adequately discussed. As you can see I believe that free will is not a myth and, in fact, its existence is very real and not only that but that is central to Christian belief.

Here is a very short list of the things that I believe that presuppose a belief in the existence of free will:
The belief that all men are created equal
The belief in hope
The belief in forgiveness
The belief in understanding
The belief in repentence
The belief that evangelism has a purpose
The belief in the value of education....presentations of ideas, etc.

All of these things presuppose that by exercise of our free will that we are personally capable of change.

A short list of things that deny the existence of free will:
The belief in predestination
The acceptance of the belief of victimology(that we are not responsible for our actions
The caste system(we cannot escape the limitations of birth)
The belief that we cannot escape karma

[kimmie]

Free will is wrong explained. It does not mean free will as if we can do as we are pleasing.
It means something influence you will with offering only a few options and then you can choose. For so far your free will.
You only can say yes or no but you can never change facts as they remain. free will therefor does not mean freedom.
It means you are allowed to make your own mistakes.
But you never get it right until you do it right , means you can not escape the universe.
Or you draw me that point. And I know you can't.
A men is nothing more then within his circle. He can not escape. Yet he is not trapped.
Everybody is nothing more but a part in a theatre and drama.
You can pretend what you want but it ain't real.
So you can choose to talk to someone or not. More choises are not existing.
So you can only make choices and nothing more.

You can go completely right and left in your own circle and you allways say at some point yes.
But you are still in the circle.

Zo nothing is against the will of people.

To change who you are can not be. And if that makes you unhappy you are an unhappy person.

But you choose anyway to be an unhappy person. And God gave you that option. Get the point now?