No God

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by running

i dont get energy from things i read...i can explain in description exactly in a lot more indepth than the things people say in the things i see written. because my gift is in feeling. so its like im looking right at it. and somebody is telling me to not look at it but listen to somebody talk about whats typically staring me in the face. feel the energy from something when its all already right in front of me from the planet. there is far more power from the planet than i can handle. and not sure how a being can supercede the one that gives life to all of us.

Loved what you said there. Getting it from it's divine origin is beautiful. The source of light and love and peace.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by running

when i was in the process read yoganandas book autobiography of a yogi. they called this concern you have attachments. this came to me after i posted. so im mentioning it now. in the process it could be good to lose attachments to things. people, places, and things. i got rid of everything i owned except my truck and a couple of bags of clothes. i put my meditation first and spent all of my time on my practice i could. i lived, breathed, and drank it. everything else was less or not important. i kept up with what responsibilities i had.

In my little way of saying things is reactivity which is how we do do all the things like aversion, craving, clinging, avoidance, resistence attachment and all that, That's why people say one bit is alright like desire, but the tendency is reactivity of all kinds because that are all driven by that same tendency. Then people want to justify noble desire, but they must have isolated that aspect of the tendency and pretended it isn't connected with clinging, craving, attachment and aversion, avoidance, and all of that. But I'm very consistent and do not have good and bad desires, since the cessation of reactivity as a whole is the cessation of that whole tendency

over time of letting go of the things the attachments of the things goes away. that was helpful. how helpful i dont know? i dont have a way of comparing if i didn't do that. amyways over time for me anyways that practice of non attachment ended. as i became more ok with having and not having. but more importantly the bliss and silence swept everything away as they became in the expereince without effort.

Well really, non-attachment is being OK with having and not-having... which means things can come and go just as they are wont to do, which is the same as non-reactivity, which is the end of volition, which is 'effortless'. But this applies to any sort of experience, bliss or no bliss, as just the fact of anyone's experience just as it is. Hence the one with bliss is really practicing just the same as one with no bliss and the idea of 'more advanced' practices is a myth. I know you aren't saying anything about that, but apparently in Buddhism that have one meditation to start with and then you do other meditations, and some are 'advanced' so they do an advanced meditation. In my school there was no such thing. There is just the practice, but you can refine that practice, so the adepts are working at more subtle levels whereas the novices work with the surface - but this is only because you can't experience what you are not actually experiencing, and you can only be aware of the experience 'as it is'.


When one stops to just be aware of the experience as it is, the reactivity ceases in that moment of noticing, so the mind becomes calm and peaceful as opposed to being agitated with reactivity. If there is no reactivity there, that's when the mind is undisturbed, unaffected, undistracted and it starts to become more perceptive and notice subtler things than it did before. That's one aspect of the purification. The other aspect is pure awareness of ure observation, which is awareness without reactivity or awareness and equanimity. That is a mind that makes no waves and silence, stillness is just you not being affected and perturbed by the experience that is arising. In fact nothing has ever affected us, but we go through the delusion that the one who is affected is 'me'. The same me who wants 'something other than this' as that desire is not willful, it is actually reactivity, so the notion that I can make the bliss happen is really just a reaction desire to perpetuate the self-image - since volition is kamma - and that's the engine of rebirth which propels 'me' through time.


Everything will continue being swept away, and there's nothing you can do about that now. The current is there and you can't make it go away, but actually it's always been like that, you can't make it happen or make it stop and no one can do anything about the fact that 'this is how it is' right now.


This relates to the practice because awareness here and now is not something anyone does - it's just true. Being where things are true is different to doing a practice to make things happen, which seems to generate argument because there can only be non-volition in the absence of volition, and with reactivity volition is incited, and all the volitional methods are actually reactive processes, so as one graduates from one exercise to the other, the old thing become useless so that ceases to be done, then the next one is useless and they cease, then the next, and the story goes that by ceasing these volitional drills one after the other one becomes enlightened and ceases them altogether. I'm also saying notice the reactivity which is driving the volition and cease that, but not because you do anything to make it stop, but because when you stop the notice, you have already ceased doing it.



Anyway, that's enough of my babbling...

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

That is not what I am saying at all. How one experiences what is depends on ones depth and applying practices can change how you experience. That is a basic tenet of spiritual practices.

My point is that you are not making "choiceless observation" you are not doing cessation of volition.

Exactly. I'm aware of this because it's true.

You are still applying a practice while arguing that you are not. What you consider choiceless is just at the beginning of a deeper journey.

What you are asking is the mind to do something. That is a act of will of intent of violation. Being aware of what this is like is a good practice but again it is not realizing the depth of what this moment truly is at your level.

The intent is there to hone in the subtle, but there is no volition to make it other than it is.

That is nice that you are aware of such things but where is it leading you. What do you do when you notice anger? Do you stay in the anger because it is?

Anger is reactivity and when I stop to look I see the anger in the mind, and because I'm the one aware, I'm not the one who is angry, and If I'm not the angry one, nobody is angry, so that reaction ceases.


The sankara generated by rage in the past can still be etched in, and a great rage can materialise like a violent storm in me. I'm aware and not getting involved through the reactive process, and because there's no reaction, there's no volition and it is 'as it is'. It's nature is impermanent, so it passes away soon enough.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by running

my gift is in feeling.

Now me-me-me
My definitions:

Nowness is Space and Awareness is a Sense.
And ‘Being’ is an Empty or Hollow Sounding-board (ooooor Instrument) to "What Is".
… In a sense that is the “Not-Knowing-What-Is”, which “tells” one “What Is”.

*

Working on the dual mind (with mindfulness practice) can still and open it, but it can also reinforce it and close it.

Trungpa of course:

This practice of seeing the precision of situations at every moment, through such methods as the awareness of walking, is called shamatha (Pali: samatha) meditation. Shamatha meditation is associated with the Hinayana Path or the "lesser vehicle," the disciplined or narrow path. Shamatha means "peacefulness."

There is a story concerning the Buddha which relates how he taught a village woman to develop such mindfulness in the act of drawing water from a well. He taught her to be aware of the precise movement of her hands and arms as she drew up the water.
Such practice is the attempt to see the nowness quality in action, which is why it is known as "shamatha," the development of peace. When you see the nowness of the very moment, there is no room for anything but openness and peace.

Whenever we begin to evaluate, deciding that we should or should not do this or that, then we have already associated our practice or our knowledge with categories, one pitted against the other, and that is spiritual materialism, the false spirituality of our spiritual advisor.

Excellent, excellent practice, like many other excellent practices.

Imo. if we ‘allow’ (can’t think of a better word at the moment) …. or perhaps ‘expand’ or 'attune' into that ‘dimension’ of spacious openness in nowness, we can go beyond the mind. Or is the expression to “liberate the mind” (?)

In general:
Failing that for whatever reason, and our focus will be a kind of ‘precision mind watching work’ …. getting that heavy handed “handle on reality” with our deadly honest, deadly serious, deadly earnest hard work ethic, our hard fact attitude.

- Which we then begin to evangelize for others to adopt as well in the name of ‘Spirituality’. "To get with the programme"

And our ‘suit of armour’ (against genuine openness) really becomes like a wall, like a steamroller squeezing all space and freedom out of a situation. We become “this is what your program should be” tyrants.

*

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

So the adepts are more advanced than the novices. Just the fact you used the two terms shows there is a progression.

Yes there's progression, but the idea that someone progresses is merely self-imagery. In my school a person's progress was based on their ability of equanimity - or the ability not to be perturbed by any kind of experience. Generally speaking it seems easy to keep the balance when you're comfortable, but then discomfort sets in and/or traumatic feelings come up, and we start to react adversely, which disrupts equanimity. In our cases as we try to climb over each other by saying more high spiritual things that everyone else, we have to honest about how agitated we become in the face of unpleasent feelings and vicissitudes. If we do become agitated by these mundane aspects of experience, then we can't say we are more advanced due to energy experiences and so forth.

No, you didn't. Do you experience bliss? Do you experience energy? Do you experience silence and the radiating bliss of it during the day? Do you experience emotions as energy?

I did say that and I say it all the time, but I'm not involved in that argument.



I'm a very ordinary person and there's nothing particularly special going on here that makes me stand out. A few pages ago I summarised my spiritual experiences when running asked me, but only because I thought his curiosity was genuine. That's enough for me, and you already read that.

That is not answering my question. If now is not nirvana then you haven't experienced now as it truly is and have work to do. Pretty simple concept.

It's just because you define 'what is' as ultimate wisdom, and I'm using 'what is' to mean the experience 'as it is'. The reason I use that context is we can only be aware of the experience as it is at the moment.

Again, just side stepping the question about there being a path. There clearly is one with Buddhist traditions which this section is about.

I was emphatic in saying the path is from gross to subtle (as opposed to from past to future).

Depends on the type of desire now doesn't it....

Maybe. I don't think so, though.

One can graduate from it. One can apply practice to change the current what is.

I don't think so. We can look into what is and perceive more subtle elements, but is anyone making that happen?

Meditation is trying to change what is.. if you are meditating you are not being, you are doing.. so you are very far from not doing....

It is possible to 'just watch', but in the sense that creation arises with conscious awareness we can say that you do it but now it's already done. Reactivity is after the fact.



The issue in meditation is what you are already doing, reacting to everything arising, and it is by noticing it that you stop doing that - otherwise it continues to plays out unawares.



The problem is, you can't notice it if you aren't noticing it... that's where the topic becomes nuanced.

Where in the world do you get the moment of noticing is the end of doing? You are doing by noticing are you not? You are saying you are in a state of not noticing and then have to do to notice.

In the moment of noticing it is 'already done'. If you're OK with that it's fine, but if you react you incite the volition to make other that is already is. I say don't do the second bit because why generate 'this' if you want 'something else'.

Now let's look at volition.







Lot's of good stuff here.

~ VOLITION ~
An Introduction to the Law of Kamma
by Sayadaw U Sãlànanda

Sorry last one :)

Not a bad passage at all!

[running]

Originally Posted by sentient

Now me-me-me
My definitions:

Nowness is Space and Awareness is a Sense.
And ‘Being’ is an Empty or Hollow Sounding-board (ooooor Instrument) to "What Is".
… In a sense that is the “Not-Knowing-What-Is”, which “tells” one “What Is”.

*

Working on the dual mind (with mindfulness practice) can still and open it, but it can also reinforce it and close it.

Trungpa of course:


Excellent, excellent practice, like many other excellent practices.

Imo. if we ‘allow’ (can’t think of a better word at the moment) …. or perhaps ‘expand’ or 'attune' into that ‘dimension’ of spacious openness in nowness, we can go beyond the mind. Or is the expression to “liberate the mind” (?)

In general:
Failing that for whatever reason, and our focus will be a kind of ‘precision mind watching work’ …. getting that heavy handed “handle on reality” with our deadly honest, deadly serious, deadly earnest hard work ethic, our hard fact attitude.

- Which we then begin to evangelize for others to adopt as well in the name of ‘Spirituality’. "To get with the programme"

And our ‘suit of armour’ (against genuine openness) really becomes like a wall, like a steamroller squeezing all space and freedom out of a situation. We become “this is what should be” tyrants.

*

thank you for sharing. you sorta gave me an opening to elaborate. thank you for quoting feeling. so im going to take the opportunity. lol. im going to do the same from the perspective of feeling. so we can see two different perspectives with one goal in mind. hope thats ok.

the body is connected to what could be openings. as things open what is opened to makes its way in. from a feeling perspective there is a fluidity to it. a taste to it. a malleabity to it. there is also a connection to the nervous system by it.

as what one becomes open to and what one is merges. through feeling these openings, these new energies, the old energies become in contact to the subtler ones. this is where it starts. the teaching happens as the subtler energies mix with what one was. the subtler energies newly introduced dissolve the old. one can taste the old becoming the new. one can feel the rigidness of the old become malleable. one can feel the cracks of the brittleness of the old. one can feel the subtler energies fill the cracks and repair, put back together what had become damaged from the brittlness of the old. teaching or making everything that was into it. where as the subtleness with its malleability can stretch out to new pastures. of ever increasing subtleness, and malleability. this subtless works deeper into the system. into each and every cell in the body. the openings become bigger as one progesses. again reaching to futher subtler energies. to which it isn't about openings so much as its more all one thing. as this goes on it becomes more impactful to the living experience. where one was living from the mind and its emotions to the depths of silence and joyful intoxication of the nervous system.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by running

thank you for sharing. you sorta gave me an opening to elaborate. thank you for quoting feeling. so im going to take the opportunity. lol. im going to do the same from the perspective of feeling. so we can see two different perspectives with one goal in mind. hope thats ok.

Good - I like sharing ...
Interesting.
What jumped out for me from the text was this:

what one becomes open to and what one is merges.

That is a very important point imo. to remember, whether one has been 'Shaktipated' or not.

*

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by running

your sorta assuming i haven't read a lot of things. i have no issue with reading although it could appear that way. i have no issue with teachings if it helps someone. but its about what works and what doesn't. like i said i dont get energy from things i read.

You know me running. If I am offering you a book that I say has a transmission, that others I know can feel and you say you can't... what does that tell you?

i can tell you exactly what is between where i am and where im going. i can describe it in feeling, taste, and locations. i can explain in description exactly in a lot more indepth than the things people say in the things i see written.

I would agree there are a lot of people writing books for various levels at various levels trying to describe things. Many of which you are beyond. That does not mean there isn't stuff out there from true masters that are beyond you. The book I linked to for you is a perfect example.

because my gift is in feeling. so its like im looking right at it. and somebody is telling me to not look at it but listen to somebody talk about whats typically staring me in the face. feel the energy from something when its all already right in front of me from the planet. there is far more power from the planet than i can handle. and not sure how a being can supercede the one that gives life to all of us. i have as you know merged with gurus through shaktipat and so on. they themselves dont have the power of the planet. but requires being open enough to expereince such and i haven't always been that open. so gurus were helpful when i wasn't open to the planet as i am now.

What is the planet? Is it separate from you? Is it separate from the Divine beings? Yes, I will tell you that Divine beings can and are more powerful than what you perceive or feel from the planet.

its about what works. after reading everything i could for a few years i know what works and doesn't work for myself. im glad lineages work for you and others. im just not in the same camp is all.

You said you were part of a lineage. I have found everyone has a connection to a lineage even if they are not aware of it. You have found what works for you, what has helped you to this point and that is good. I would have you look at the obstructions that you hold on to that tells you, you know it all, that there is nothing more that can help you. In your own way you are much like those that don't believe in guru's, bliss or energy...

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes there's progression, but the idea that someone progresses is merely self-imagery. In my school a person's progress was based on their ability of equanimity - or the ability not to be perturbed by any kind of experience. Generally speaking it seems easy to keep the balance when you're comfortable, but then discomfort sets in and/or traumatic feelings come up, and we start to react adversely, which disrupts equanimity. In our cases as we try to climb over each other by saying more high spiritual things that everyone else, we have to honest about how agitated we become in the face of unpleasent feelings and vicissitudes. If we do become agitated by these mundane aspects of experience, then we can't say we are more advanced due to energy experiences and so forth.

The self is imaginary but just like you said there is a progression. A progression means one is advancing along a path.

Just because someone farther along the progression get's caught up in an issues doesn't make them the same. Those farther along may still get caught up BUT they have more tools to use, silence, energy, space to let go of the issue quicker than someone without any of those realizations/tools.

I did say that and I say it all the time, but I'm not involved in that argument.

To be honest, I don't even know what this means. To you energy is an imaginary thing...

I'm a very ordinary person and there's nothing particularly special going on here that makes me stand out. A few pages ago I summarised my spiritual experiences when running asked me, but only because I thought his curiosity was genuine. That's enough for me, and you already read that.

I missed it, I did look so if you could link it for me I would very much appreciate it.

It's just because you define 'what is' as ultimate wisdom, and I'm using 'what is' to mean the experience 'as it is'. The reason I use that context is we can only be aware of the experience as it is at the moment.

Correct, one should be working towards Buddha Nature. If all you do is accept the current condition.. you will just stay there.

I was emphatic in saying the path is from gross to subtle (as opposed to from past to future).

Nobody is talking about the future, but one can change how they experience now.

Maybe. I don't think so, though.

Well, I will go with what the Buddha has to say on it. In the future please let people know you are giving your view that disagrees with Buddhist teachings so people are not confused.

I don't think so. We can look into what is and perceive more subtle elements, but is anyone making that happen?

Of course they are!! If you aren't.. then please, please look at your practice with an open mind and see if there is something you need to change.

It is possible to 'just watch', but in the sense that creation arises with conscious awareness we can say that you do it but now it's already done. Reactivity is after the fact.

The issue in meditation is what you are already doing, reacting to everything arising, and it is by noticing it that you stop doing that - otherwise it continues to plays out unawares.

The problem is, you can't notice it if you aren't noticing it... that's where the topic becomes nuanced.

Noticing requires will, staying with that noticing requires will. When you are that Witness without will you have realized silence in daily life. Each are steps along the path. Even with the depth of the Witness one can still get caught up in issues and fears. The Witness is not the end all be all, nor is it the end of suffering or the end of will.

In the moment of noticing it is 'already done'. If you're OK with that it's fine, but if you react you incite the volition to make other that is already is. I say don't do the second bit because why generate 'this' if you want 'something else'.

So there is good will/desire and bad will/desire

Not a bad passage at all!

I'm surprised you like it because it refutes your views on will.

[running]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You know me running. If I am offering you a book that I say has a transmission, that others I know can feel and you say you can't... what does that tell you?





I would agree there are a lot of people writing books for various levels at various levels trying to describe things. Many of which you are beyond. That does not mean there isn't stuff out there from true masters that are beyond you. The book I linked to for you is a perfect example.



What is the planet? Is it separate from you? Is it separate from the Divine beings? Yes, I will tell you that Divine beings can and are more powerful than what you perceive or feel from the planet.



You said you were part of a lineage. I have found everyone has a connection to a lineage even if they are not aware of it. You have found what works for you, what has helped you to this point and that is good. I would have you look at the obstructions that you hold on to that tells you, you know it all, that there is nothing more that can help you. In your own way you are much like those that don't believe in guru's, bliss or energy...

tells me its not for me. are you really wishing to take your buddah that far? as to tell me unless i get to know them im gonna miss the boat or something? i can't take what your saying along your thinking here seriously anymore about these things. got many friends that believe i must expereince jesus. im ok with various peoples. whatever faith helps you is what matters. it is human nature to wish or have the need to be a part of something.

as far as development of my path. i am witnessing the transformation. so what people think they know as your suggesting you do is irrelevant.