Removing or not needing Chakras?

Originally Posted by Uma

You can listen to the whole conversation here for a limited time while it's up on the livestream: Link Click on the Conversations video for Day 33. The part about the causal body and the chakras begins at 27:17

I have listened to parts of it now. Is this in Holland by the way?
The woman behind the laptop has a definite dutch accent.

Anyway about feeling or living or understanding it in the subtle..
I have to agree that certain aspects of life are felt in certain areas of the body. One example I remember him writing about is when holding you child the area in the middle of your chest starts expanding.

Now as I understand it he calls that the feeling of an expanding heart chakra. In my view that feeling can have a different explanation. As can the subtle pressure people feel in their head when they access their 3d eye. If we agree to call that feeling a chakra then fine chakra exist. I am led to believe however that with that feeling and the calling of it a chakra we also have to connect a lot more concepts as part of such an energy center. And that is where the concept of a chakra as a static certain thing falls apart for me.

If I were to take acupuncture or pressure as an example. Just because it is more my expertise. If i look at an ailment from a 5 element perspective I would needle or press on very different acupuncture points than if I diagnosed the same ailment from a Zang Fu or organ perspective. That is because even though the body has many small points that allow to connect to the chi of a person. It is guided by intent.

In my mind the same would be true for connecting with Prana through the chakra. Were it not that the chakra due to their larger areas of influence become a rather restrictive way of connecting with Prana/Chi.

Take the causal body with the potential chakra memories..
To me that just A way to explain how karma and past life experiences may be transferred from life to life. Other explanations may be equally true.
It is a rather western outlook on life where we feel only one explanation can be true in case of the acupuncture example above it is the western practitioner who has to work to wrap his or her head around that whilst many an eastern practitioner has a much easier time accepting that an ailment can have different treatments based on different diagnostic tools.

Even the reason for needling the same point can be to bring about a very different effect where in the 5 elemental philosophy you would needle a point to nourish an element where in the organ related philosophy you would needle the same point to treat a yin or yang imbalance in a certain organ system.

With Love
Eelco

[Carnate]

Originally Posted by CrystalSong

Wow, I had forgot that passage.....
I wonder why he chose to kill the tree instead of healing so it could bear fruit?
It seems counter intelligent to everything he taught about love.

Like most of the bible, it's metaphor and allegory. There likely wasn't a real fig tree that withered. Having said that, I'm not well versed enough in the bible (let alone this passage) to offer an interpretation.

Originally Posted by Carnate

Like most of the bible, it's metaphor and allegory.

Yes keep going.. Metaphor's, Allegories........, concepts?.

There is reality.
As humans we create images of that reality.
Alas very often we get to confuse the image for the realty.

What do you think, could this be the case for the chakra as well?
I think so.

With Love,
Eelco

[Carnate]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Yes keep going.. Metaphor's, Allegories........, concepts?.

There is reality.
As humans we create images of that reality.
Alas very often we get to confuse the image for the realty.

What do you think, could this be the case for the chakra as well?
I think so.

With Love,
Eelco

I don't believe so.. at least not in the manner you're suggesting. The metaphors were used to mediate spiritual knowledge. As one progresses spiritually, they gain more insight into the metaphors used, which then allows greater spiritual knowledge through reading the texts. Progress and understanding becomes staggered.. not provided as a whole that surpassed people's ability to comprehend/accept.

To extend this metaphor/belief concept to the actual 'reality of the subtle bodies' removes any value in learning or gaining spiritual wisdom. When you start believing that 'anything can be whatever you want it to be', then you no longer need to study or learn.. reality 'is' whatever you want it to be. What I think you're suggesting is that no matter what anyone believes about anything, that belief becomes their reality and perfect truth.

I could give you any number of abhorrent examples of how the above doesn't work. Rather than go into too 'dark' territory, I'll use an example that may fit this thread a bit better. If a person is lead to believe that energy can only be collected from other people, would you agree that this becomes how they operate? That they are then free to use other people for sustenance..? That other people should let this person 'feed' off them..? And then, that other people should take up similar views to regain their stolen energy..?

Originally Posted by Carnate

When you start believing that 'anything can be whatever you want it to be', then you no longer need to study or learn.. reality 'is' whatever you want it to be. What I think you're suggesting is that no matter what anyone believes about anything, that belief becomes their reality and perfect truth.

I don't believe this for anything or whatevers. I am not suggesting this at all.
I belief there is a reality, A way in which it operates. I belief we can study it and learn to work with it.
When it comes to the chakra though I don't accept them as part of reality. They aren't part of our soul matrix or energy matrix or necessary to live and grow. Let's just keep it at that we differ in this ok?
If you like you can do a quick google search about what buddhism teaches about the chakra. It seems the way I view them is a more common point of view.

All I have done is take that point of view and for myself created a ritual to sever myself from a belief system that on an individual basis no longer holds any truth..

Take the following quote for instance.
Buddhist sites when searched for an explanation of the chakra are full of similar comments.

chakras are psychological constructs. You mention that you feel energy flowing through the body. Meditation upon chakras is simply a way of creating a construct to help organize and order the energy.

With Love
Eelco

Originally Posted by Carnate

I could give you any number of abhorrent examples of how the above doesn't work. Rather than go into too 'dark' territory, I'll use an example that may fit this thread a bit better. If a person is lead to believe that energy can only be collected from other people, would you agree that this becomes how they operate? That they are then free to use other people for sustenance..? That other people should let this person 'feed' off them..? And then, that other people should take up similar views to regain their stolen energy..?

Not going there as this has nothing to do with the conversation. My beliefs or how I view people around me.

With Love
Eelco

[Melahin]

Originally Posted by Carnate

To extend this metaphor/belief concept to the actual 'reality of the subtle bodies' removes any value in learning or gaining spiritual wisdom. When you start believing that 'anything can be whatever you want it to be', then you no longer need to study or learn.. reality 'is' whatever you want it to be. What I think you're suggesting is that no matter what anyone believes about anything, that belief becomes their reality and perfect truth.

You are very welcome to hold me to such a belief. Question arises: why to you feel there is anything to learn or gain? My experience is that everything one comes about feels like remembering, and there are great many that say the same... also that their greatest epiphanies did not come from studying, but by relaxing... and in actuality really did nothing at all other than allow it in. So the question stands why do you feel that way? Would it not be more fun if you could simply just enjoy the unfolding of your nature and expansion of your being

Also, I did once speak to an energy vamp on an Otherkin forum. Amazing creature she was, and it was her way of getting the nutrition she felt she needed. If reality is other than how I see it, then she would be stuck that way, but she isn't she... even if she does not realize it she has choice... and my only thing is whether or not she is in balance with that choice, because if it is nature then who are any of us to say anything at all... because then her choice would be very limited. Like I once thought we all had the potential to be anything, and while in essence that might be very true, we won't really desire to be anything that lies outside the range of our desire / nature. So it is irrelevant if I could become something I don't want to be by the mere fact that I would never desire to be so. If it is her nature, then the question is not whether or not she should stop being an energy vamp, but how can she find a way to live in coherence with it... since I am not her, I have no idea the range of her choice / nature (only that it is abundant)... and that she desires to not feel hurt, or hurt others in the unfolding of her nature and expansion of her being... which is perfectly possible from my experience.

There is the story of a million truth that say that when a person speaks, there are equally as many truth of what is said that there are people who can hear the words. When we find more layers in a book, any really, it is not because it has been layered, it is because our perception of it deepens. Like the bible for all we know could be the most shallow book ever created, but because of the mist it is shrouded in it becomes a wonder to behold. We could do this with any book if we desired to for one simple reason:

A book, fiction or not, is equally real to the reader.

And that is because it is the experience of it that counts, like it is how we experience life that counts. Not what is written or what other tells us, but how we relate to it through our own experience of life. Yes, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one

[Carnate]

I've always been of two minds about this 'anything is possible' idea. And, Melahin, for the most part, I do agree and support you in your view point. But there are constraints that relate to time, effort, and spiritual progress.

By this I mean, it's not entirely accurate to say that 'anything is possible', so tomorrow I'm going to wake up with wings that will let me fly to another galaxy and live on a gas giant (planet). I know this is a highly far fetched / extreme example.. but it had to be to get my point across. In some ways, I can see that at some far distant point in our future, we may not need our chakras... But in consideration of our current situation, within the limits of our current capabilities, I can't see / accept that removing our chakras is beneficial, let alone possible.

And it's our understanding of what chakras are and how they function that is setting us at odds in this debate; and not at odds outside of this debate in any way (this statement applies to Eelco too).

I've long held the belief that when we Master this physical reality, we will be given the leeway to create/manifest our own universe, just the way we like it. Or we can continue our spiritual journey outside of the physical dimensions and strive to reconnect with the Source.

I guess I've just got something of a different understanding of chakras, and a wider understanding of the subtle realms that relies on the chakra energy system, that prevents me from accepting that chakras can (for the foreseeable future) be removed.

[Melahin]

I agree @Carnate, I saw one of your post in another thread and it was amazing; it was almost like is this the same guy haha

Originally Posted by Carnate

By this I mean, it's not entirely accurate to say that 'anything is possible', so tomorrow I'm going to wake up with wings that will let me fly to another galaxy and live on a gas giant (planet). I know this is a highly far fetched / extreme example.. but it had to be to get my point across.

Your example here is bad because you don't believe in it... so if believing in it is what would make it happen, then the only way your example can be good is if you said: I have spend time enough to build momentum of thought in this belief that it should have happened, but because it hasn't I say it is not possible. But you haven't, neither do I believe you desire it enough to give it the kind of attention that it requires to become real I could believe that you might desire wings though, so you could actually play with that and let us hear how it goes

More and more are starting to say that effort is not your friend, and that it is not a question of time, but a question of how much you can relax into your desire. But please tell more about these subtler realms that you see relies on chakras... if you feel like it.

Originally Posted by Carnate

I guess I've just got something of a different understanding of chakras, and a wider understanding of the subtle realms that relies on the chakra energy system, that prevents me from accepting that chakras can (for the foreseeable future) be removed.

Would you be open to accept the idea that there are subtle realms out there that do not rely on chakra energy?

I would agree that in a system or realm that relies on chakra energy it would be impossible to remove the chakras.
Therefore we seem to have a different take on what kinds of subtle realms governs the grosser realm of life on this planet here and now.

With Love
Eelco