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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spirituality

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  #11  
Old 05-08-2020, 02:13 PM
Starman Starman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
What you have implied is similar in regards to Walt Disney but for some, all the Disney characters are illusory and cannot exist as individuals .
x daz x

Illusionary means illusive but it does not mean it is not real. Many think that which is temporary, or ever changing, is illusionary.

Of course the laws of physics say that two things can not occupy the same space at the same time, but I believe that it does not have to be and either or situation. They can be illusionary as individuals. Its’ like creation and evolution can coexist, it does not have to be one or the other.
  #12  
Old 05-08-2020, 03:55 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Consciousness may have infinite levels not just one.

In this infinite every level exists, here and there.
  #13  
Old 05-08-2020, 07:19 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
There is only One Self.

Unity is not exclusive of multiplicity: both are still aspects of One Being.
Any aspect of One Being is still One Being. It is merely an illusion that a grain of sand or drop of water is not the entire Universe - it truly is.

Differentiation is only a conditional instrumentalization of the One Being, which includes the dynamic process of individuated becoming within the interdependent multiplicity which is also the One Life of One Being.

That any differentiation of One Being may realize itself as Identical to the One Being - in all forms, poises, and statuses, is the significance and opportunity of human life. The individuated being is not separate from, but actually IS the One Self.

~ J

I don't normally speak in terms of absolute and individual terms but I agree the individual is not separate from what you are (Self).

Now the title of the thread mentions about the Self being all there is rather than there is One Self .

I say this because through the eyes of the individual there isn't the One Self seeing through such eyes, it isn't an absolute vantage point is it . It isn't an absolute awareness had of all there is .

Why isn't it so that an individual can be in awareness of all there is?

Perhaps this is down to certain conditions that you touched upon J .

I think personally that the One Self creates an unnecessary thought that there is only One per se and confuses the life out of some who therefore think that there is just one entity or one non entity that is God or some other term that suits .

In a way it could be said that the tree is the one Self individualised but the tree is not Self in entirety and this is where individuality comes to the fore because there isn't the absolute entirety in awareness and I would say this is key .

Dreamy characters that are not actually real cannot attain a point of self individualised awareness and this is also key .

Good to speak to you again J .


x daz x
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  #14  
Old 05-08-2020, 07:24 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
Illusionary means illusive but it does not mean it is not real. Many think that which is temporary, or ever changing, is illusionary.

Of course the laws of physics say that two things can not occupy the same space at the same time, but I believe that it does not have to be and either or situation. They can be illusionary as individuals. Its’ like creation and evolution can coexist, it does not have to be one or the other.

I would say that as I have been putting it across in regards to illusory refers to the person isn't what it seems or appears to be .

Just as the rope is mistaken for a snake and vice vera .

So when I say that non dualists say there is no one here, there are no separate persons present they become illusory in that they are not actually self aware as individual peeps .

What I am pressing in another thread is that dreamy characters who are not individually self aware in the first place cannot awaken or transcend the so called dream .. it's like a shadow and a shadow cannot feel pain, nor can a shadow be aware of any truths .

It's no good as I see it having a premise about reality and the nature of appearances that pertain to the person when such appearances negate the foundation of the premise .


x daz x
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  #15  
Old 05-08-2020, 10:56 PM
Starman Starman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I would say that as I have been putting it across in regards to illusory refers to the person isn't what it seems or appears to be .

Just as the rope is mistaken for a snake and vice vera .

So when I say that non dualists say there is no one here, there are no separate persons present they become illusory in that they are not actually self aware as individual peeps .

What I am pressing in another thread is that dreamy characters who are not individually self aware in the first place cannot awaken or transcend the so called dream .. it's like a shadow and a shadow cannot feel pain, nor can a shadow be aware of any truths .

It's no good as I see it having a premise about reality and the nature of appearances that pertain to the person when such appearances negate the foundation of the premise .

x daz x

I think what you have said is a valid proposition. Although, again, I don’t necessarily embrace bifurcations. In my perspective duality and non-duality coexist. Duality refers to physical existence while non-duality refers to formless spiritual, or non-physical, existence.

Going deep into inner silence is similar to a dream state, no past or future, no thoughts, just being. For me non-duality means no expression of any kind, while duality exists in the expression of contrasts. The human mind is inherently dual while the core depth of our being is non-dual.

We see, observe, and analyze expressions; one such expression is individuality, or the appearance of separateness. In my opinion there are many levels of reality and no such thing as absolute reality, at least none that we can know with our mind.
  #16  
Old 05-08-2020, 11:12 PM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hi Guy's ..

This seems to be the sticking point in many conversations regarding what you are that experiences life .

There are obviously many levels to what we are but fundamentally speaking from the premise that there is only what you are that can encompass all life as we know it .

All of creation as we know it .

Now what seems to be the case in non duality terms is that there is only ONE .

This is my eyes doesn't mean that there is only ONE Self in a way where ONENESS is one dimensional (excuse the pun).

One is the many and the many is one in this regard, that is why there can be individuality while still retaining fundamentally the sameness that is of all things .

Oneness put across in such a way where anything that relates to twoness must mean separation of oneness is incorrect in my eyes .

There is the incorrect understanding of oneness to begin with which creates a premise of there cannot be twoness .

I welcome your thoughts ...

(I didn't post this in the non duality section in order to captivate a larger audience and perspective).

Of course from a hard core non duality standing pointing there is no one here to have any thoughts on this and yet thoughts do come to the fore within awareness of your very self lol ..

Does anyone else find these type of statements bonkers?


x daz x

I buzz one millionioth..

That’s because I’m light years away..��

(At least your not still banging on the ‘not self, no self’ contradiction you had months back.. ooopsy, wait one sec! ‘You did mention it’ hehe)


No I don’t find them bonkers, BECAUSE I understand myself through experience of what the meaning and relationship in myself relates to it as more ‘directly’. If you haven’t ‘passed through’ that stream of awareness directly and your simply being yourself as you are and relate your own way, it doesn’t matter.

You may be understanding it differently in your own time and contradiction with it..


Everything we pass through and relate to defines itself and it’s own experience, sometimes people’s process and use of terminology, cannot be recognised through the logical brain, but rather it’s felt and known directly through experience. The descriptive nature arises through the ‘felt and known’ when one understands ‘directly from experience’. If you haven’t had a ‘direct experience, logic cannot rationalise what it is seeing, noticing and curious about. Intuition can read another’s experience and take aspects into more ‘felt and known’ understandings, but not all ‘T’s’ are intuitive..
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Your trials did not come to punish you, but to awaken you - to make you realise that you are a part of Spirit and that just behind the sparks of your life is
the Flame of Infinity.
Paramahansa Yogananda
  #17  
Old 06-08-2020, 06:22 AM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hey there Greeny ...

I think certain folks (non dual illusory folks) would say there is only the appearance of separation .

In a way there is no separation if we simply relate to what we are as being all there is .

It's a common understanding that relates to oneness isn't it . So although there can be an experience had of an elephant there can be also an experience of a mouse
there is no fundamental separation between the mouse and the elephant but there is an individual experience had that relates to them .

What is inferred in non dual terms is that there cannot be individuality because there is oneness so what appears to be individuality is false and illusory .

What is apparent though is that no matter how hard a non dualist states their claim they don't appear to live by it and that is the dead giveaway in my eyes .

I agree that everything is related in what you say regarding the flower of life .

Thanks for the history lesson ;)



x daz x
I don't know what you had for breakfast, Daz, and you don't know what colour of pyjamas I had on last night and had it not been for this forum neither of us would know the other existed. I am not all there is. And the objective reality is that all reality is subjective. And if "WE" are being all there is? Self only exists in relation to not-self, whatever that is.

Non-dualism is that individuality is false and illusory, isn't that duality in that you have that which is false and that which is - at least implied anyway - true? Or is it a cognitive disorder? I love it when non-dualists use dualism in their argument that there is no duality.

While people are going to spend so much time waxing Spiritual about oneness and separation they're going to miss one single point that is so simple it's difficult to understand - if there is no individuality there is no oneness. Is that so hard to understand? Individuality 'drives' consciousness, oneness becomes stagnation.


Together, we are one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
It's no good as I see it having a premise about reality and the nature of appearances that pertain to the person when such appearances negate the foundation of the premise .
Sometimes Spirituality isn't about Spirituality.

Last edited by Greenslade : 06-08-2020 at 08:12 AM.
  #18  
Old 06-08-2020, 06:29 AM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
All of these many levels are all embedded in oneness.
There is no oneness without individuality, they can only exist in relation to each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
You, as an aspect of oneness rely upon all that you experience to create feedback to the universe in order to know that you are here.
Which you can only do as a perceptual individual. which you can't do if you are perceptually one because there is no relationship - or echoes and reflections if you'd like to use that.
  #19  
Old 06-08-2020, 11:54 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starman
I think what you have said is a valid proposition. Although, again, I don’t necessarily embrace bifurcations. In my perspective duality and non-duality coexist. Duality refers to physical existence while non-duality refers to formless spiritual, or non-physical, existence.

Going deep into inner silence is similar to a dream state, no past or future, no thoughts, just being. For me non-duality means no expression of any kind, while duality exists in the expression of contrasts. The human mind is inherently dual while the core depth of our being is non-dual.

We see, observe, and analyze expressions; one such expression is individuality, or the appearance of separateness. In my opinion there are many levels of reality and no such thing as absolute reality, at least none that we can know with our mind.

The spirit world experience is non physical and contains etheric form but is still of duality . Non duality in my eyes or what it refers too is beyond experience and beyond self . Just 'being' as you put it, beyond thought and beyond expression is more to my understanding of non duality, that is why when someone say's to me that non duality means there is no individual running around makes no sense to me .. because there is self awareness, there is I AMness present .

Non duality doesn't relate to I AMness or self awareness or experience or expression or thought ..

Of course non duality to some (excuse the pun) only means One not two, but again it comes with so many complications that don't add up, things that are being discussed of late .



x daz x
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  #20  
Old 06-08-2020, 12:00 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
I buzz one millionioth..

That’s because I’m light years away..��

(At least your not still banging on the ‘not self, no self’ contradiction you had months back.. ooopsy, wait one sec! ‘You did mention it’ hehe)


No I don’t find them bonkers, BECAUSE I understand myself through experience of what the meaning and relationship in myself relates to it as more ‘directly’. If you haven’t ‘passed through’ that stream of awareness directly and your simply being yourself as you are and relate your own way, it doesn’t matter.

You may be understanding it differently in your own time and contradiction with it..


Everything we pass through and relate to defines itself and it’s own experience, sometimes people’s process and use of terminology, cannot be recognised through the logical brain, but rather it’s felt and known directly through experience. The descriptive nature arises through the ‘felt and known’ when one understands ‘directly from experience’. If you haven’t had a ‘direct experience, logic cannot rationalise what it is seeing, noticing and curious about. Intuition can read another’s experience and take aspects into more ‘felt and known’ understandings, but not all ‘T’s’ are intuitive..

There is no self to understand or experience, this is the contradiction . This is the confusion . You cannot know yourself if yourself isn't real .

You cannot pass through that stream of awareness you talk of because there is no-one to pass through anything .

self awareness of I AM is illusory .. This self evident awareness of self knowing isn't real or true or correct based upon non duality as discussed .

It's all dream ..



x daz x
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