Non Duality and Spiritual Bypassing ?

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

From the perspective of Advaita that's fine. Fundamental = Nirguna and emergent = Saguna. Kinda sorta but I'm thinking you get the picture. Unmanifest and manifest. Face and its reflection.

Sometimes there's also a translation of mindset as well as language, but I understand what you mean. Thank you.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Which suggests that there is more to perception than the standard material explanations.

There's probably a lot more to perception and how we see and hear as well, because often in NDEs and OBEs certainly those two senses are far more clear than 'normal'. The standard material really only covers what can be measured scientifically, which is fair enough because everything after that is speculation and belief. The information from your eyes can be tracked through the brain as it's being processed so at least there's something objective and measurable, but that's not the case with OBEs/NDEs.

That's not being dismissive it's being sceptical, because science still has a long way to go before it can sit on its laurels.

I used to work in mental health and have known case where people have described their episodes in detail. In those cases the brain is quite capable of conjuring up all kinds of things that have no correlation with what their eyes were seeing at all. In a couple of cases their consciousness was 'detached' from their brain/body/mind and they were literally observers inside their own skulls. In one case I had top trap a young Asian woman in a public toilet after she had a breakdown, I never did find out what she actually saw but she was so terrified of me that she ended up sitting in a puddle of her own urine. She'd been so scared of me that she tried to run out onto a busy road to get away from me. That was a very different person to the intelligent and quick-witted woman who liked playing mental tennis with me. All because of a chemical imbalance in her brain.

It's one thing sitting in a forum with a skull full of religious ideologies and theologies about how our perceptions work - and scientific understandings too. But it's not until you experience reality beyond the 'sane' mind that all if those don't amount to much more than a hill of beans. Really, all we have is a best guess.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Both the conscious and unconscious seems to be relative to the brain, and scientific studies seem to show at least that much. It was David Chalmers who said the 'Hard Problem' of the scientific study of consciousness is how brain processing becomes subjective experience. The experience is what we become conscious of.

It's really not difficult to join the dots between the brain and the collective unconscious, Jung found patterns and called them archetypes and frankly it's not that difficult to observe archetypes as you read through any thread. 'Spiritual' is an archetype according to Jung, interestingly. When you have a group of people come together inevitably they'll unconsciously take on roles within the group, and the same thing happens when in family groups, groups at school and so on. What's happening is a perpetuation of the - often unconsciously - learned patterns/archetypes. While we are individual the underlying brain patterns don't change as much as people would like to think they do, often becoming predictable.

Either there is something other or there is not. You either believe that or you don't, this type of clear thinking in this area helps. So do you think when Carl Jung experienced supernatural psychic phenomena in his household/ actually in his kitchen for this instance on one or more occasions that he knew fully logically and totally completely what that psychic phenomena represented ? In this case it was the pots and pans on the walls moving around as if of their own free will ? So Jung knew what the opposite of all that was ?

What was it then ? So you see the human mind has governance or better i might say takes Governance from something not fully known. It is much like the death zone on Mount Everest, few if any people venture there. Well nowadays lololol that has changed a little. But relatively few people still venture there, to the death zone. And so it was with Jung, he plunged into the depths of his own being and often mysterious miraculous and psychic phenomenon followed him about.

Do you think he knew fully conclusively, day and night what these worldly supernatural happenings represented ? So to think you can on paper say there is perfection and imperfection on paper therefore there is no perfection is something only the limited logical mind can think up tbh. Just as Jung would not or could not too say here is why that psychic phenomena occurred so in this way you can not 'conclusively' say there is no perfection, you can say it and logic may allow you to say that and fair enough, but like Jung couldn't conclusively say what these psychic phenomena were, so no-one can conclusively comment or say what reality is even more so through language. Jung could say things no doubt about these psychic phenomena, plenty of things i would imagine but he couldn't fit them into this so called logical pretence that language occupies most of the time. Best Regards Joe

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Originally Posted by Joe Mc

he couldn't fit them into this so called logical pretence that language occupies most of the time. Best Regards Joe

That more than applies to Spirituality so what are we doing here? And likely your thoughts too - and everyone else's?

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

That more than applies to Spirituality so what are we doing here? And likely your thoughts too - and everyone else's?

When you say "That more than" do mean that otherness I spoke about at the beginning of the post ? I think you do. So that otherness is there and people approach it through frameworks don't they ? Spiritual and religious frameworks figure heads, revelations and so forth. When you say ..What are we doing here...you mean ..in this life ? I thought you meant the Spiritual Forums ..Regards.

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Originally Posted by Greenslade

That more than applies to Spirituality so what are we doing here? And likely your thoughts too - and everyone else's?

We??? No I don't see a we.

I see "Sattvic" guna actions here mostly in form of inquiry/questions/knowledge seeking. Sometimes, in arguments/debates - Tamasic dominates. Sometimes, the pride of "My/mine" - an action of Rajasic Takes over. Sometimes in the forum, in fear - Rajasic actions takes places for seeking solutions for problems of duality.

I see the play of only these three gunas. No person, including me. One of the three gunas takes the superior position, one moment or other, Like a machinery/dream or a FLOW....

The above is about forum. In Life, sometimes I see people, when they get into some adharmic/inhumane activities, but after suddenly awareness comes about the "Tamasic guna", so the identity of people disappears then. Sometimes in life, when tamasic dominates more in form of seeking the beautiful figures in porn, when suddenly some thought/advertisements pops-up. It's not that I see them as person - but 'rajasic' guna takes over and search for many beauties old/new in websites. I can see that rajasic guna started to reduce it's domination day by day, comparing to all the years before. Sometimes, Sattvic guna acts in places like here or any question/doubt/advice raised/seeked as Rajasic guna.

So, all these dominates and plays, I can see it clearly. Sometimes people identification comes but immediately vanishes and not prevails. I don't know when that 'identifying as person' or 'life' or 'my witnessing of dominating/play of these gunas in form of lust/anger/dharma/adharma/knowledge/ignorance/universe/atoms/love/hate/power/devotion/religion/politics/spiritual/experiences/five koshas' ends, but let it ends or starts or not - it doesn't affects me now.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 244 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Those were common patterns that played out for generations that became part of the unconscious, just the same as any other experience.

I'm clairsentient and I trust my intuition. When I go into that area there's a slight shift in my consciousness


Personally I think Jung's collective unconscious is different to where I think you're going with this..... Sensing and remote viewing are very different to the collective unconscious, but they may well be related.

You are perceptive, as usual, and my intuition indicates that you are intuiting correctly "where I think you are going".

Your explanation of the development of the collective unconscious ("Those were common patterns that played out for generations that became part of the unconscious, just the same as any other experience.") does indeed sound very plausible. I wasn't heading in that direction, as you intuited correctly, but it does make sense that it is at least a contributing factor to the collective unconscious (perhaps the only factor in the Jungian sense, as you are more highly versed in Jung than I am despite Jung being one of my personal favorites).

Although you wrote that "sensing and remote viewing are very different to the collective unconscious", I'm glad that you are open to exploring further as (in your words) "they may well be related".

Nice insightful open-minded post.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by iamthat

This understanding of perception using the eyes and the brain may apply to the physical body, but what about after the physical body has died or in the OBE state?

Perception after death or while out of body is still present without the physical eyes and brain.

Which suggests that there is more to perception than the standard material explanations.

My personal OBE/NDE experience is completely consistent with what you just wrote. The verifiable remote viewing aspect of that experience most assuredly was NOT related to the physical eyes.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 252 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The information from your eyes can be tracked through the brain as it's being processed so at least there's something objective and measurable, but that's not the case with OBEs/NDEs.

I used to work in mental health and have known case where people have described their episodes in detail. In those cases the brain is quite capable of conjuring up all kinds of things that have no correlation with what their eyes were seeing at all.

Your scientific approach to such matters is commendable. You are correct that "The information from your eyes can be tracked through the brain as it's being processed so at least there's something objective and measurable". I just completed a "Brain Neurobiology" online MOOC course (via www.coursera.org) offered by the University of Chicago. It went into great detail on the visual process, the auditory process, the cognitive processes, and a lot more. The tracking measures are indeed quite impressive.

You added that "that's not the case with OBEs/NDEs". At this time, you are correct. However, there are some very interesting lectures at IONS (Institute of Noetic Sciences). The website is www.noetic.org . Lecturers have demonstrated neuroscience activity during lucid dreams where the lucid dreamer had been previously instructed to move their eyes in a certain way when they were aware of being in a lucid dream. Having been in a 3-day "irreversible coma", I can tell you with certainty that comatose patients can hear very well what is happening in their immediate vicinity. (I actually had comatose clients in hospitals who responded in various ways while in a coma. One woman actually sat up and opened her eyes before going back into coma.) Such things could probably be measured neurologically in the future. There are some interesting experiments planned at IONS in the future and, having had an NDE/OBE myself many years ago, I would not be surprised if they were able to measure and verify perceptions during such happenings. I was very aware from afar of what was going on around my body and communication in that state (with neurological monitoring) might indeed be possible. You raise an intriguing subject.

Having a clinical psychology postgraduate social work degree/license, I can relate well to what you wrote about people reporting things "that have no correlation with what their eyes were seeing at all". This is not uncommon.

On a related note, I am wondering if you ever took this selective attention 1-minute test which demonstrates another perception principle (selective attention). I don't want to say more or that might destroy the experience if you have not already seen this. Here is the link:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Gem

There's probably not a real possibility of 'bypassing' because potential has already been generated in the past which has to manifest in conscious experience at some time. I think many people want to avoid the inevitable and hope there is a spiritual way out, but the one aware doesn't want a way out and couldn't do anything about what is already destined even if it wanted to, which it doesn't. A simple example is, After birth you can't make death not happen. It has to happen. No bypass.

Just wanted to look at what you said again Gem. Although I do get the gist of what you have said, I am also made aware of how myself and everybody else at some point or other has gone through some denial of our feelings etc. An extreme form of Denial broadly manifests in what we know to be Addiction. Addiction is the obvious, Bypasser, if you will that says N0!!!! Don't pass this way, I have a better solution in the form of substances or processes. Also isn't it possible to misconstrue what you said for some kind of indeterminacy or even fatalism ?

You say, " Already Destined " and broadly speaking I do get what your saying but are speaking about the laws of Karma here etc. etc. ? Regards Joe.

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