Buddhist Deities really Deities?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Maisy

In Hinduism there is the creator "cause" Godhead; Brahman, the divine source of being.
Buddha did not like the idea of a creator God for a bunch of reasons. Buddha thought if one believed in a creator God, they would become lazy and not work on enlightenment.

Ah, that sounds similar to the Powers That Were taking references of reincarnation
out of the Bible as best they could so peasants would not think,"Oh well, I'll take care of this in the next life."

You mean Buddha did some manipulation? (I had never heard this.)
Is this esoteric knowledge?
Thanks for any expounding on this.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Is this esoteric knowledge?

It's probably not known well but it's just in the Aṅguttara Nikāya in the The Pāli Canon, the standard collection of scriptures in the Theravada Buddhist tradition. Aṅguttara Nikāya is part 4 in the Sutta Piṭaka, the second of the three divisions of the Tripiṭaka. The Aṅguttara Nikāya consists of several thousand discourses ascribed to the Lord Buddha and his chief disciples arranged in eleven books.

I didn't read the Aṅguttara Nikāya, I just googled questions about the Godhead in Buddhism and Buddha's comments from the Aṅguttara Nikāya came up in the search. In those sections Buddha was discussing why one should not spend their time speculating about a creator God or believing in one. One of his reasons seemed to be one could then blame their actions on their creator instead of taking responsibility for it themselves. Buddha also said in that section if one blames their bad or evil actions on a creator God then such a creator God would be evil as it would be the cause for evil.

[Catsquotl]

I think there's several ways to look at the problem.
If i go out and search for godhead and Buddhism with a preconceived notion of what I expect to find, In all of the Tripitaka I will find a list or teaching which may be construed as what the Buddha taught.

I think of Buddhism as being very favorable to religion. hence When I search I find the next quote.

Theism, however, is regarded as a kind of kamma-teaching in so far as it upholds the moral efficacy of actions. Hence a theist who leads a moral life may, like anyone else doing so, expect a favorable rebirth. He may possibly even be reborn in a heavenly world that resembles his own conception of it, though it will not be of eternal duration as he may have expected.

[sky]

According to various Buddhist Scriptures The Buddha did not say there is or there isn't a God, what most Buddhist seem to believe and teach is that the God of Abrahamic religions makes no sense to them.
You can find out 'why' they think so in various Sutras/Suttas....

I personally love these two Verse.

“I am the core of all that exists. I am the seed of all that exists. I am the cause of all that exists. I am the trunk of all that exists. I am the foundation of all that exists. I am the root of existence. I am 'the core' because I contain all phenomena. I am ‘the seed’ because I give birth to everything. I am ‘the cause’ because all comes from me. I am ‘the trunk’ because the ramifications of every event sprout from me. I am ‘the foundation’ because all abides in me. I am called ‘the root’ because I am everything” - Samantabhadra Buddha.

We interpret 'I Am' according to our 'Personal ' perceptions.....

" If we examine the origin of everything in the Universe, we find that is is but a manifestation of some Primal Essence " - Surangama Sutra.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Catsquotl

I think there's several ways to look at the problem.

Why see it as a ' Problem '

[Catsquotl]

Originally Posted by sky

Why see it as a ' Problem '

Because at times I am unaware of what drives me to respond.
Added to that the discussion about right view that I read in one of the threads the other day.

Going in to investigate something with a preconceived notion is problematic I think.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Catsquotl

Going in to investigate something with a preconceived notion is problematic I think.

Sometimes we do become victims of our prejudices. I have personally found that seeing what I use to think of as 'Problems' are now challenges. This change is more beneficial for me.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Maisy

In Hinduism there is the creator "cause" Godhead; Brahman, the divine source of being.

Buddha did not like the idea of a creator God for a bunch of reasons. Buddha thought if one believed in a creator God, they would become lazy and not work on enlightenment.

In the Tevijja Sutta two brahmins argue about how best to reach union with Brahma (Brahmasahavyata), who is seen as the highest god over whom no other being has mastery and who sees all. However, after being questioned by the Buddha, it is revealed that they do not have any direct experience of this Brahma. The Buddha calls their religious goal laughable, vain, and empty.

Buddha was into things we could directly experience, not speculation.

In the early texts, the Buddha is not depicted as an atheist, but more as a skeptic who is against religious speculations. Buddha emphasized we are responsible for our incarnations and progress, not a creator God. We are making ourselves in a sense by our actions and the karma that comes from that.

In the Aṅguttara Nikāya. This doctrine of creation by a supreme lord is defined as follows: "Whatever happiness or pain or neutral feeling this person experiences, all that is due to the creation of a supreme deity (issaranimmāṇahetu).Buddha criticized this view because he saw it as a fatalistic teaching that would lead to inaction or laziness:

"So, then, owing to the creation of a supreme deity, men will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, abusive, babblers, covetous, malicious and perverse in view. Thus for those who fall back on the creation of a god as the essential reason, there is neither desire nor effort nor necessity to do this deed or abstain from that deed."

In another early sutta (Devadahasutta, Majjhima Nikāya, the Buddha sees the pain and suffering that is experienced by certain individuals as indicating that if they were created by a god, then this is likely to be an evil god.

"if the pleasure and pain that beings feel are caused by the creative act of a Supreme God, then the Nigaṇṭhas surely must have been created by an evil Supreme God, since they now feel such painful, racking, piercing feelings."

I think it's pretty clear what Buddha's thoughts were. He felt if we believed a creator God made us, we could blame this God for all we do and are. Instead Buddha taught we are responsible for what we are. We incarnate according to our nature and our nature is wholly created by ourselves.

I think a spiritual path like Buddhism is about changing our nature. From being self centered, mean, etc stressed out, in conflict, to having a nature of peace, loving kindness etc. What we are and do is the instrument of change, not belief in Gods and such.

My understanding of the Buddhist view is a little different.

There are many Hindu views depending on which tradition you follow.

For some all there is is Shiva. We are just aspects of Shiva trying to find our way back to the realization that we are Shiva.

Others believe we are unique aspects of Shiva. That we are one with Shiva but can never be fully all that is Shiva. This is the same view as Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

The Buddha said no, all that is a limitation to what you truly are. That the realiztion that you are Shiva is just a step. That there is a realization beyond Shiva/universal mind.

The Heart Sutra in Buddhism.

Void=Form and From=Void.

The first one is emptiness of self and the second is emptiness of universal mind.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Podshell

Those scriptures are universal,like the bona fide guru,they are for all.
I sometimes wonder if Christ used clever methods to save peoples' souls,methods that to us seem like trickery-I for instance am convinced that others as well as Christians can be saved,but Christ said he is the only way to god-if a shepherd saves his flock from going over a cliff by making it appear that the sheepdog is trying to eat them,they are tricked but saved,will they bear grudge to the shepherd for the trick/lie? I think they would praise his cleverness.So sometimes Christians may take offence at this explanation but for some it may hopefully be a step forward,I apply the same to the explanation of Buddha and Buddhism.Loving parents will never forget you even if you forget them,they will always be there to help.

To me Jesus was a Buddha, a realized being who turned the wheel.

[Redchic12]

SKY:
….”…………..I have personally found that seeing what I use to think of as 'Problems' are now challenges. This change is more beneficial for me”

Totally agree with Sky. I’ve done that for many years now.

CATSQUOTL:

……”Going in to investigate something with a preconceived notion is problematic”
.
Don’t really get,this. I mean why would you investigate something with a preconceived notion. Doesn’t seem to make sense to me. Surely you investigate something with an open mind to find out what is truth. If you think you know the answer then why look for it.

Sorry guys don’t mean to be offensive to anyone. Maybe I interpreted this quote incorrectly.