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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Death & The Afterlife

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  #21  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:39 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
...
For example, when trying to understand true unconditional love ...

My reflections on the subject ... from a little over one year ago (how much happened since!):
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...69&postcount=3
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #22  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:24 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
Let me ask you, how much do you learn from your nightmares? I don't learn anything from them, except when I realize that it is a dream, become lucid, and do something from there
......
Why should it be necessary, even useful, to suffer, or experience suffering, when I could just prevent it, or nip it in the bud, by using purposeful creation?
........
None of the reliable channels support the idea of learning through suffering. That is the pannage of religions, 'progressive" movements, and other scare-mongers.


Well now, religious pannage (yes, I did have to look that word up), scare mongering, and progressivism (not even sure why that is a bad word). Why do I feel as if I stand accused of being a spiritual criminal?

I often do learn a great deal from my dreams, nightmares in particular. I suspect I learn far more than my thinking mind realizes or could even comprehend. While my thinker may be sound asleep, deeper in my mind the struggle to understand my life experience goes on. The process down there is different then the deliberate stringing together of premises and conclusions, or the analysis of facts, causes, and effects that the rational thinker uses. Though dreams may seem like just a random creation, sometimes even helter skelter madness, there is a pattern of communication there, and one can learn to identify and understand it, to some degree, if they know it is there and look for it. Often it is the particularly bizarre and seemingly nonsensical dreams that teach me the most. Down there, beneath the level of that thinking cerebral brain, my subconscious mind does not use argument and reason to communicate, but instead uses a language of images, events, and feelings. The trick to understanding them with the cerebral brain upon waking up is to spot the patterns, metaphors and allegory between the events in one's waking life with the often seemingly unrelated images and events of the dream. Though we say it is the ‘unconscious’ or ‘subconscious’ mind, I have found it has a power to make connections between events and to see and understand patterns and meaning in a way that the cerebral thinking wakeful brain does not. Once that subconscious mind figures something out and the cerebral thinking mind learns how to listen to it, its power of perception, insights, and ability to comprehend the life experience is nothing short of amazing. The subconscious mind seems to have a way of being ‘conscious’ of things that the analytical thinking conscious mind lacks, and it often understands things much more deeply than that thinking mind ever could.

Now, you may think that it is just pareidolia, but as of late I have determined that God speaks to me using a similar kind of language. It is a much more subtle language, very slow in its delivery, often includes long pauses before the main point or punch line is delivered, yet the build up seems to make it that much more powerful when a message finally does come through. God communicates to me, a part of me even deeper than that subconscious mind, through the events and experiences of my life.

How this is possible I do not know given that I appear to be sharing this life experience with 6 billion or so other souls, but I am convinced it is. There is some inference to why and how this could be so in some of the Seth materials I have read. Yet individual I, living this particular life, from that individual perspective, cannot truly comprehend it. It helps to know that all of the time that we experience in this life, past present and future, actually exists in the present moment and are all equally real now. It helps to know that Hugh Everett was right and there are probably infinitely many universes woven into those quantum waves, infinitely many branching chains of cause and effect to experience. It helps to know that though this ‘I’ is aware of having this one experience in the 4th dimension, ‘I’ is just one permutation of a being capable of spanning across higher dimensions and experiencing many different chains of events at the same time.

Knowing all of that helps me to realize and accept that God (or whatever label or concept you might prefer to use) is actively communicating to me through what might otherwise seem like the unconnected and random events of my life in way quite similar to how my subconscious mind communicates to me through those seemingly unconnected images and events in my dreams. My life is a story, it has many chapters, many different lessons woven within, and the protagonist has a character arc. I suspect that it may even have a moral that will become apparent at the end. If I turn around and look back, without anger, judgment, or regret, sometimes I can see the purpose in the path that I have plotted along. Once you realize this, and learn how to interpret the hidden language within life, it is really quite incredible and beautiful to behold. Good and evil, joy and suffering, all those polar dualities of that move with the flow of life, all merge into one beautiful scene, one beautiful sound, and it all seems rather perfect, exactly as it is.

Perhaps there is no need to suffer, IDK. Perhaps you have discovered the way to achieving all of what life can provide without any suffering at all. Perhaps you have arrived, if so, then I congratulate you on your triumph. What I do know is that when I have suffered, and when that suffering has passed, I often find that when I look back on those events in my life that I suffered through, God has communicated something to me, and I find myself feeling grateful for it. Something that the cerebral thinking part of my mind cannot comprehend, nor perhaps even my subconscious mind. Yet I am somehow aware that deep down in some depth of myself, perhaps in my soul, some part to which the language of the events of life comes more natural, has grasped it, understands it, and has been moved by and benefited from it. Hopefully this realization is a sign that it will not be necessary to suffer those particular pains again. Perhaps I have paid for something that I could have gotten for free, or at least much cheaper, but I am more than satisfied with the price I paid and what I got in return.

“Suffering is not good for the soul, unless it teaches you how to stop suffering. That is its purpose.”― Seth (Spirit), Seth Speaks: The Eternal Validity of the Soul

If the sorrows and agonies within your system were not felt as real, the lessons would not be learned.” -- Seth
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  #23  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:46 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Well now ...
Thanks for your reply.

I won't try to convince you, or anybody else of my views. I just state them for reference, and I'm aware that they may be inaccurate. When I feel that I get into back and fore I back off.

If I told myself some years ago what I believe these days, I would've dismiss it with a condescending smile.

I appreciate the way you think things through, and how you present them.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #24  
Old 05-06-2020, 09:01 AM
JosephineB JosephineB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
My reflections on the subject ... from a little over one year ago (how much happened since!):
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...69&postcount=3

Are you saying you don't think agape love has ever been possible so far on this plane?
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I salute the Divinity in you.
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  #25  
Old 05-06-2020, 11:23 AM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
Thanks for your reply.

I won't try to convince you, or anybody else of my views. I just state them for reference, and I'm aware that they may be inaccurate. When I feel that I get into back and fore I back off.

If I told myself some years ago what I believe these days, I would've dismiss it with a condescending smile.

I appreciate the way you think things through, and how you present them.


For me the value of back and fore is that it helps me determine why, whether, or how much I should be convinced of my own views. The way I know this is working is when I look at my present views and see there many things that I once did or would have dismissed as too absurd to be possible. The reason to support my views is to help teach myself more so than others. If another gets something from my post that is good, but I find they are almost always written for me and almost always tell me something about what has been forming deeper inside of me. They seem to be a rather reliable channel into the deeper parts of me.

All of our views are inaccurate in one way or another, and I might even say that all views are fundamentally inaccurate representations of what they try to envision. There are the opinions and views we can discuss with facts and reason, then there is the deeper knowledge that we gain from experience that we often cannot express in words nor convey to another in a way they could understand. NDE accounts like the one in this thread are a good example of the latter, and I generally enjoy reading them. The facts and theories can be discussed, the experiences we just present as a justification of something that we cannot support (or as additional support perhaps) with facts or reason.

I don't mind when someone throws out the "based on my experience" card as a justification for a belief. But I am always a bit perplexed by some who seem to become agitated if I don't accept it as a truth for myself right then and there. I have learned not to callously throw their statements out as in time what once seemed absurd has become understandable and accepted. But of course many have not as well, and in the mean time I am content to put most of them on the shelf in case I wish to revisit them at some point.
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  #26  
Old 05-06-2020, 09:39 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
For me the value of back and fore is that it helps me determine why, whether, or how much I should be convinced of my own views. The way I know this is working is when I look at my present views and see there many things that I once did or would have dismissed as too absurd to be possible. The reason to support my views is to help teach myself more so than others. If another gets something from my post that is good, but I find they are almost always written for me and almost always tell me something about what has been forming deeper inside of me. They seem to be a rather reliable channel into the deeper parts of me.

All of our views are inaccurate in one way or another, and I might even say that all views are fundamentally inaccurate representations of what they try to envision. There are the opinions and views we can discuss with facts and reason, then there is the deeper knowledge that we gain from experience that we often cannot express in words nor convey to another in a way they could understand. NDE accounts like the one in this thread are a good example of the latter, and I generally enjoy reading them. The facts and theories can be discussed, the experiences we just present as a justification of something that we cannot support (or as additional support perhaps) with facts or reason.

I don't mind when someone throws out the "based on my experience" card as a justification for a belief. But I am always a bit perplexed by some who seem to become agitated if I don't accept it as a truth for myself right then and there. I have learned not to callously throw their statements out as in time what once seemed absurd has become understandable and accepted. But of course many have not as well, and in the mean time I am content to put most of them on the shelf in case I wish to revisit them at some point.
  1. What I believe isn't based on rationalization, it isn't borrowed from any guru or dogma (maybe 80% is in agreement with Seth, but I din't borrow anything from there either). So, there can only be a conversation of statements and some explanations, no justifications, no corrections, and, as I wrote, I don't intend to convince anybody.
    .
  2. I didn't get agitated.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #27  
Old 05-06-2020, 09:55 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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@ketzer:

I recently wrote on another thread that my favorite movie is "Amadeus" (there is a free link there). Years ago, when I watched it for the first time, this line hit me:
“Salieri: I will speak for you, Father. I speak for all mediocrities in the world. I am their champion. I am their patron saint.
I felt Salieri's hopelessness. No matter how proud I was of my reasoning capabilities, I was, and fated to be, a mediocrity too.

Years later, I realized why: intellect without intuition is worse that common-sense ignorance (not talking about stupidity).
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #28  
Old 06-06-2020, 12:21 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
[quote=inavalan]
  1. What I believe isn't based on rationalization, it isn't borrowed from any guru or dogma (maybe 80% is in agreement with Seth, but I din't borrow anything from there either). So, there can only be a conversation of statements and some explanations, no justifications, no corrections, and, as I wrote, I don't intend to convince anybody.
    .
  2. I didn't get agitated.
[/QUOTE
1) Rationalization? That is an interesting choice of word. Often used in a negative connotation, but not necessarily so. Much of what I believe is based on rationally looking at facts, scientific theories, and philosophies and then projecting from there to form my own hypotheses of what it all might imply. I have begged, borrowed, and stole from countless sources of facts, opinions, philosophies, and theories of others over the years to build my own theories and beliefs. Never much cared what particular title or following they had, although I suppose scientist or philosopher does carry some weight with me. I expect I may even have invented something new here and there. Of course one never can tell what may have been squirreled away at one time or another in the deeper recesses of the mind, only to pop up later stripped of its citation. Seth is a rather new source of ideas to me but I do like what I have read so far. Interestingly, many of the things Seth claims are conclusions that I had already reached by other means. Conclusions I would have once dismissed out of hand.

2) Of course, I also have my beliefs formed directly through my own experiences in life as well. The two are intertwined and sometimes the latter are supported well by the former, and sometimes I can’t find a strong scientific or theoretical basis in the former to support the latter, but that is ok. Maybe someday I will have the facts and theories with which to rationalize those experiential based beliefs, maybe not. I do occasionally express those latter beliefs on this forum, but I can’t expect anyone to just accept them because I say I had this or that experience. Yet some do become agitated if you don’t just accept them when they say

..”believe me, I know, I have experienced it, when you are as advanced as me you will understand, yada yada yada”..

Their claims of experience may not be nonsense, but their expectation that others simply accept them as fact, IMO, is. Anyway, I do occasionally run across such individuals and that was my point. I didn't mean to imply that you yourself had become agitated. It is just a general observation about what seems like an odd expectation of some who do. Of course, I suspect that their reactions are often a subconsciously generated argument tactic, rather than true agitation about not having their beliefs based only on their personal experience accepted as a fact by me, but all I know is they seem to protest when they, IMO, have nothing to protest about.

All that said, I have to admit that I have become annoyed at those who simply deny my experiential beliefs, or even conjectured beliefs based on facts and hypotheses, with no curiosity at all as to what might be behind them. Simply repeatedly yelling bullsht at something does not pass as a counter argument and says more about the person than the idea they are criticizing.

.
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  #29  
Old 06-06-2020, 05:27 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Thanks for your reply.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #30  
Old 19-06-2020, 06:35 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Now as for those monkeys who tend to fly into a rage and throw their feces at me, those get old real fast.
ketzer, this made me chuckle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
If this is a footprint to believed and it resonates with me,with the riots and anarchy going on around the world,we are at the destruction phase to rebirth.

Maybe empathy/love will come for humans,once the destruction has ceased.

Earth people in general are not self destructing in my opinion.

Wondering how this works. I've read in our soul families one member will go through trauma and the rest watch on, and learn from the experience same as the one going through trauma. Is it the same for all the people who are not currently on the Earth plane watching on? Do they watch and learn as the Earth people destroy each other and everything around them? Do we all evolve together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
The crazy thing is many/most of the other humans are saying the same thing about humans. The thinking part of the human mind is good at perpetuating the illusion that it is in control and making all of its own decisions based on its own reasoning, when what is going on in fact is much more instinctual and animal driven. Tell them that and they will think you are crazy and deny it, which is why they keep doing it. It is very disturbing to realize that many of our actions, decisions, and opinions are done unconsciously, so our brains perpetuate and maintain an illusion of control. We seemed to have evolved a thinking brain, and then set it on top of an instinctual more animal like one. We are a horse and rider. The rider only has as much control as the horse allows it. Yet the rider thinks it has much more control then it does.

I have found that 99% of people really don't want to know the truth if it upsets their apple cart (set beliefs). No matter what. They would rather continue living in their blissful cloud of reality untouched by what is going on all around them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer

Perhaps our ignorance is not really ignorance, but is just our willing suspension of disbelief, which we do so we can experience life instead of just watching it. Our lives are comedies, dramas, tragedies, and horror, they include moments of all the genres. When I become engrossed in a good book or movie, I become transformed by the story. For I time I become one with that protagonist, I fear their threats, agonize over their tragedies, take satisfaction in their triumphs. When the story ends, regardless of the outcome, I feel a sense of loss, of death, and of awakening to a larger reality. For a time, even though I know it was just a story, I remain notably changed by it, but as the larger story of my life resumes, that change fades back into the background. Yet it never really goes away completely, occasionally something reminds me of it and for a moment I am back there, in that story. I seem to take something with me to keep from each story I experience, whether they be in a book, in a movie, or in life.

I was just thinking of this yesterday. Ever read a good novel that you feel such a loss when you finish it. There are times I have frantically looked online to see if there was a sequel. To lose that world, I feel abandoned. I am engulfed again in this cold and lonely reality where my body and soul resides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Many in the spirituality crowd are quick to point out that life is an illusion. They say not to worry about it, it is not real, you can’t really be hurt or die, and this is all true. For a time I was one of them, and that person still surfaces when life gets particularly hard. However, now I tend to view such folks as the person who keeps talking over the movie and critiquing the characters, plot, or flaws in the science fiction. I know it is an illusion, but it is a real illusion all the same, as real as any illusion I am apt to create to experience. If I allow it to, if for a time I willingly suspend my disbelief, it will transport and transform me just the same.

If we skip through life saying it's all an illusion we learn nothing and must come back to try again. Maybe this time on a different platform. Best to grit my teeth and feel the pain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
To better understand whatever I learned in class (how to purposely use and master my creative capabilities), I have to do my homework that includes attending a lab to practice (creating stuff). I login into a simulation software that allows me to do that (physical world).

The virtual exercise puts me in contact with other students, each one at its (we are androgynous) terminal, and we all participate with our avatars (conscious, outer-self, ego) in the simulation. There are all kind of situations we have to resolve, and for the duration of the session, we sometimes get so engrossed in the plot that we forget that we are students, and we identify with our characters, and their challenges are our challenges.

Unfortunately, most of the students forget that they are in this game to practice and acquire creation skills, and not to get sucked in the game's dramas. Because of that, most of us fail the lab. So, we have to re-do the lab over and over, until we learn to concentrate on the purpose of the game (improve our reality creation skills).

We even forget that we have access to a lab assistant (inner-guide, inner source of knowledge and guidance) that can help us, if we ask it for help.

Flipping the other side of the coin now. You almost make it sound like a Harry Potter movie. So engrossed in our lessons we forget and take everything personal as an attack on us personally.

I'm reminded of my parents who were not nice people and put myself in danger in very dark ways. I came to realize during my healing time that they were not attacking me personally. I chose them as parents. They were in my life, doing awful things to me, because they were my teachers. Nothing personal. How could I hate someone who was only doing what they were supposed to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
I like the analogy, but the only part of waver a bit on is that paragraph I quoted above. This is something very hard to convey, but I will go against my better instincts and try anyway. I think perhaps that life is a process of transformation as much or more so than a process of learning or skill building. It seems to me that there is a kind of growth that incorporates, but also transcends, learning and even wisdom. A kind of ‘knowing’ that is transformative to the soul in a way that goes beyond ordinary knowledge of facts, figures, and processes, beyond social skills or emotional intelligence. A kind that is very hard to describe using words so perhaps I should leave it as is as I am apt to only muddy the water more.

More recently I have begun to question just how much of an advantage understanding the illusory game like nature of reality gives one. While one may be able to take a more rational approach in life and understand facts and build skills with a clearer mind and methodical approach, this is a different kind of learning then one gets from a more visceral and “real” experience of life. Kind of like how learning about war through battle tactics and military theory in a classroom, or playing war simulation video games, is something very different than how one learns about war on an actual battlefield where one believes their life to be at risk.

For example, when trying to understand true unconditional love, some may say that there is no greater love than to lie down one's life for another. Many parents will say they would indeed do so for one of their children. Yet if one is truly secure in the knowledge that there is no death and it is merely a transition to the next experience, then one could never actually make such a sacrifice in the same way as one who was not sure if there was even any life after death at all. It is simply not the same experience. In other words, the depth of one's belief in the ‘reality’ of one’s experience of life is an integral and inseparable ingredient in the particular qualia of, and the transformative power of, that experience. One can go to the horror movie and keep conscious of the fact it is just a movie, and sit back and analyze the plot and technical aspects of the story, or one can allow themselves to forget it is a movie and get the sht scared out of them. Both are a kind of an experience and both move the individual in different ways.

Finally, I think it is both a question of learning to create better, as well as life creating an experience that reflects ourselves back upon us to see who we are along the way. It seems to me that life has a way of manifesting situations that reflect different aspects of ourselves that are often outside of our conscious rational awareness. Our fears, desires, weaknesses, and strengths are somehow intentionally pushed and prodded by the events in our lives and in doing so give us opportunities to become aware of where we need to learn, build, and grow. We are the creators of our own realities, but it seems to me that in life, a shared life experience anyway, that much of that creation also originates outside of our direct awareness, outside of our direct control, but nevertheless in line with our desired and needed experience, and on our behalf.

https://calvinandhobbes.fandom.com/w...boded_Hand.jpg

If I am understanding you correctly, it's like burning the dross out of gold ore: Place the gold ore in a crucible. Put the crucible in a furnace. Heat to 1,100 degrees Celsius. Dross will rise to the surface. Periodically remove the crucible from the furnace and skim the impurities off the surface of the molten gold. Stir the gold after each removal of dross and before returning it to the furnace. Repeat this process until dross stops rising to the surface. More here: https://www.leaf.tv/articles/how-to-...s-out-of-gold/

We are the gold ore. And we can't be purified unless we are put in furnace countless times. Pretending life on Earth is just an allusion just won't work. We have to live it and breathe to accomplish the purified end result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan

Why should it be necessary, even useful, to suffer, or experience suffering, when I could just prevent it, or nip it in the bud, by using purposeful creation?

None of the reliable channels support the idea of learning through suffering. That is the pannage of religions, 'progressive" movements, and other scare-mongers.

For me I’ve been in the furnace this lifetime, and former lifetimes. I think at some point we become refined enough that we don’t need the pain to advance, but while I am still in this primitive frame of mind ya gotta club me over the head and throw me in the furnace to get that refinement.

Last edited by linen53 : 19-06-2020 at 07:36 PM.
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