Why Logic is Misleading?

Hi Spiritual Freedom,

I haven't read your thread, but I'd like to say - Yes, I agree - logic is misleading!

Logic ALWAYS flows in some way.

This is why the easiest thing in the world is deception because logic always flows.

This is how wars start.

This is why divisions exist.

This is why people believe themselves.

This is how ego wins the war, almost, always.

And now time for some Rumi:

Out Beyond Ideas
by Rumi

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I’ll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase ‘each other’
doesn’t make any sense.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

Because it resolves as consensus definitions/classifications. If for example you classify apples as 'fruit' and you also classify oranges and bananas as fruits, then you can declare "Apples are fruit." And you can also declare "Different fruits are not all apples."
Then you'll get some bright spark who comes up with "Yes but you can't call oak apples "fruit", so you may end up with a list of exceptions too (affecting the definition, not the simple logic).

True, you can't prove any of this stuff but it's generally agreed that if a phenomenon is noted by many observers then it justifies being called a fact. If 100 people agree they're seeing a chair then the chair can be treated as a fact (in the material world at least!). If you differentiate velocity over time you get an acceleration plot - a theoretical construct that works most of the time in practical situations.



A Nand logical function is what it is. Likewise a Nor.

And things like that.

what you've said is correct, it does boil down to 'consensus reality'. But when it isn't about consensus of facts but rather consensus of the interpretation of relationships between things, consensus reality strays from 'truth' quite a bit IMO.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by lemex

Keep in mind what is also being spoken about is, the charge is not the truth though. The person may have felt justified in doing the crime who did and still now apply logic, any logic (even lies) to win freedom as they still feel justified. Keep in mind there are many things done that are done that are not charged and do what should be or is equivalent to a crime. It is true there is always logic. As I have said before, no person will (openly or knowingly) say they did wrong, certainly at the time of doing, else they would not do it. I'm not even sure if a person is even capable of doing wrong knowing they are (feeling) wrong. One is often not talking about logic but justifying action by logic telling ourselves we do or did the right thing maintaining that stance. Many negatives are justified in mind positive logically. This also goes along the lines of confirming the being right. The things people do interest me especially in respect where I would not do what others do. Very interesting subject. Nice post for thought.

Everyone does have a system of logic, as you stated, regardless whether it is faulty logic or not,
it is still a system of logic. When I was in grad school in Colorado I did and internship at the
Wyoming State Penitentiary working on a sex offender unit.

A lot of the sex offenders on that unit were highly educated people, school principals, child development
doctors, etc. The one thing they all had was a logical explanation why they sexually molested or raped
someone.

Even murderers try to logically justify their actions. The justification, at least in their mind, is logical.
We are discussing how logic can be misleading here in this thread using logic in our debate to either
defend or not defend the premise of this discussion.

Originally Posted by Starman

A lot of the sex offenders on that unit were highly educated people, school principals, child development
doctors, etc. The one thing they all had was a logical explanation why they sexually molested or raped
someone.

Even murderers try to logically justify their actions. The justification, at least in their mind, is logical.

EXACTLY. People can always logic anything, and everything, including murder and rape.

JL

[Starman]

Originally Posted by SpiritualFreedom

I want to use this at a personal level. Everone talks to themselves on a daily basis. EVERYONE.

Our internal dialogue is critical; it is as and affirmation of how we view ourselves, others,
situations, and our environment. Basically it is how we form and interpret our own reality.

We are always communicating with ourselves on some level. If not in our thoughts than
intuitively. In my opinion intuition bypasses logic. It can be a very strong knowing without
a premise.

“We do not see the world as it is rather we see the world as we are” is a quote from Anais Nin,
which is also often the premise of psychological counseling. We condition ourselves, for better
or worst, by the way we talk to ourselves.

I have a female friend who says “what others say about me is none of my business, it is
between them and their mind.” Our assessment of others, or even ourselves, changes us
emotionally and can also change us physically.

Suicide is most often about people feeling stuck and not embracing, or seeing, other options.
Suicide is more about how we feel than it is about how we think; although thoughts often do
generate feelings.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Starman

We are discussing how logic can be misleading here in this thread using logic in our debate to either defend or not defend the premise of this discussion.

Absolutely, logic can be misleading and intentionally so. You really seem to have a focus on extreme cases which does not apply in everyday life and therefore may seem to imply it doesn't happen everyday. I'm not defending the premise but saying it surfaces many times and we don't even recognize or know it is done everyday. It is invisible. But then people may be perfect and the feeling is I don't do this and never have. I have never told a lie. I am sure most have had the experience of doing right and doing wrong with justification in very simple ways. You do tend to use extreme cases and not everyday life. But, if one is not to use (such) logic that is misleading is to be able to see it, is to understand when it's there through awareness, and why it is. I am saying one can be aware of it. I am just saying there is an intention behind the logic. I did not mean to come across as challenging you especially when it is correct imo but how many even know when doing it. Still a great topic imo especially for the asking the question. Have a question, is justification ok in innocent cases or do people feel justification doesn't happen?

[Starman]

lemex, I do not view what you are saying as “challenging” me, or even disagreeing with what I have shared. I think you have made some valid points, and all I am doing is sharing my own personal experience, which may appear as extremes to some. But it is not my intention to be argumentative.

I believe that a person can use both logic, faulty or otherwise, along with intuition, which often defies logic, together. There have been times in my life when a decision seemed perfectly logical to me but intuitively I had a strong feeling that I should not make the decision that way.

Speaking only for myself, logic is and innate tool that we have to learn how to use, else it might be misleading. But we also have other tools at our disposal, like intuition, which might be used to validate our own logical process.

Thank you for your insights and the discussion, peace.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Starman

It depends on the system of logic that a person uses, and if you can get others to believe it. In this world the more people who believe something the more validity that thing is given. But logic is not based on beliefs.

this is very true, people spend a great deal of time with vanity, with trying to present things in a light that other people will accept. 'Truth' is so often disregarded as a result... and in your case of lawyers and courts, often whoever can obtain the best spin despite the actual facts involved in the case will be the one who wins. It is simply that the facts can form a good portion of how things are spun, rather than that the facts in any way speak for themselves.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

this is very true, people spend a great deal of time with vanity, with trying to present things in a light that other people will accept. 'Truth' is so often disregarded as a result... and in your case of lawyers and courts, often whoever can obtain the best spin despite the actual facts involved in the case will be the one who wins. It is simply that the facts can form a good portion of how things are spun, rather than that the facts in any way speak for themselves.

I think a lot of it is because in this world image seems to play a more important role than substance. People seem to be more impressed with how things appear than they are the foundation of something.

Vanity does play a part as well, because appearance is everything. When people consciously, or unconsciously, float around on the surface, they are apt to take the surface as truth. What is normal to and everyday person is not normal to a person who investigates below the surface.

I have lived the majority of my life in the extreme, below the surface, and that is my normal. Went in the army at the age of seven-teen and as a medic delivered babies and sewed people up, etc., when I was a teenager. I was in a war at the age of nine-teen, went totally blind for about 5-years, then got my eyesight back after more than a dozen surgeries.

Born in the U.S. but lived in Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Orient by age twenty-one. Worked in the medical field, the field of social work, mental health, and then became a college teacher. All of these journey’s pushed me to investigate below the surface. Most people do not do that investigation until they have had and epiphany or impact experience.

Now don’t get me wrong, I have my vanity and superficial days also. But I knew a long time ago that I was meant to dwell below the surface. Sometimes I feel like and outsider, but that’s okay too.