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[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by sky123

No you haven't discussed the Kalama Sutta, you have just given your interpretation but I'm 100% certain that someone who follows Buddhism knows exactly what it means and have understood the message it contains

Okay.

So lets discuss the Kalama Sutta.

Please tell me what the Kalama Sutta is about and why it is so important? I already explained my position so now I would like to hear your position.

The same goes for who were the Kalamas and how do they relate to us today?

[sky]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Okay.

So lets discuss the Kalama Sutta.

Please tell me what the Kalama Sutta is about and why it is so important? I already explained my position so now I would like to hear your position.

The same goes for who were the Kalamas and how do they relate to us today?

This may help...

Ten Teachings.
BELIEVE NOTHING: 10 teachings from the Kalama Sutta to defend against intellectual dependence.

People in the world, including the Thai people, are now in the same situation as were the Kalama people of Kesaputtanigama, India, during the time of the Buddha. Their village was in a place through which many religious teachers passed. Each of these teachers taught that his personal doctrine was the only truth, and that all others before and after him were wrong. The Kalama’s could not decide which doctrine they should accept and follow. The Buddha once came to their village and the Kalama’s brought up this problem with him: that they did not know which teacher to believe. So the Buddha taught them what is now known as the Kalama Sutta, examined here.

Nowadays, worldly people can study many different approaches to economic, social and technological development. The universities teach just about everything. Then, regarding spiritual matters, here in Thailand alone we have so many teachers, so many interpretations of the Buddha’s teachings and so many meditation centres that nobody knows which teaching to accept or which practice to follow. Thus it can be said that we have fallen into the same position as the Kalama’s were in.
Buddha taught them, and us, not to accept or believe anything immediately. He gave ten basic conditions to beware of in order to avoid becoming the intellectual slave of anyone, even of the Buddha himself. This principle enables us to know how to choose the teachings, which are truly capable of quenching suffering (dukkha). The ten examples, which the Buddha gave in the Kalama Sutta follow:



Do not accept and believe just because something has been passed along and retold through the years – Such credulity is a characteristic of brainless people, or “sawdust brains,” such as those in Bangkok who once believed that there would be disasters for the people born in the “ma years” (those years of the traditional twelve-year Thai calendar whose names begin with “ma,” namely, years five through eight: small snake, big snake, horse and goat).

Do not believe just because some practice has become traditional – People tend to imitate what others do and then pass the habit along, as in the story of the rabbit frightened by the fallen bael fruit. The other animals saw it running at full strength, and then so frightened and excited each other that they ran after it. Most of them tripped and fell, broke their necks, or tumbled to death off cliffs. Any Vipassana practice that’s done in limitation of others, as a mere tradition, leads to similar results.

Do not accept and believe merely because of the reports and news spreading far and wide through one’s village, or even throughout the world. Only fools are susceptible to such “rumours,” for they refuse to exercise their own intelligence.

Etc:

Themindfulword.org

This may help you understand the Kalama Sutta. It mentions Thai Culture but obviously refers to all Folklore Buddhist..... Read the Ten Teachings they are important.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by sky123

This may help...

Ten Teachings.
BELIEVE NOTHING: 10 teachings from the Kalama Sutta to defend against intellectual dependence.

People in the world, including the Thai people, are now in the same situation as were the Kalama people of Kesaputtanigama, India, during the time of the Buddha. Their village was in a place through which many religious teachers passed. Each of these teachers taught that his personal doctrine was the only truth, and that all others before and after him were wrong. The Kalama’s could not decide which doctrine they should accept and follow. The Buddha once came to their village and the Kalama’s brought up this problem with him: that they did not know which teacher to believe. So the Buddha taught them what is now known as the Kalama Sutta, examined here.

Nowadays, worldly people can study many different approaches to economic, social and technological development. The universities teach just about everything. Then, regarding spiritual matters, here in Thailand alone we have so many teachers, so many interpretations of the Buddha’s teachings and so many meditation centres that nobody knows which teaching to accept or which practice to follow. Thus it can be said that we have fallen into the same position as the Kalama’s were in.
Buddha taught them, and us, not to accept or believe anything immediately. He gave ten basic conditions to beware of in order to avoid becoming the intellectual slave of anyone, even of the Buddha himself. This principle enables us to know how to choose the teachings, which are truly capable of quenching suffering (dukkha). The ten examples, which the Buddha gave in the Kalama Sutta follow:



Do not accept and believe just because something has been passed along and retold through the years – Such credulity is a characteristic of brainless people, or “sawdust brains,” such as those in Bangkok who once believed that there would be disasters for the people born in the “ma years” (those years of the traditional twelve-year Thai calendar whose names begin with “ma,” namely, years five through eight: small snake, big snake, horse and goat).

Do not believe just because some practice has become traditional – People tend to imitate what others do and then pass the habit along, as in the story of the rabbit frightened by the fallen bael fruit. The other animals saw it running at full strength, and then so frightened and excited each other that they ran after it. Most of them tripped and fell, broke their necks, or tumbled to death off cliffs. Any Vipassana practice that’s done in limitation of others, as a mere tradition, leads to similar results.

Do not accept and believe merely because of the reports and news spreading far and wide through one’s village, or even throughout the world. Only fools are susceptible to such “rumours,” for they refuse to exercise their own intelligence.

Etc:

Themindfulword.org

This may help you understand the Kalama Sutta. It mentions Thai Culture but obviously refers to all Folklore Buddhist..... Read the Ten Teachings they are important.

Apparently you still have issues with Thai people.

Could we not say very similar things from people from Tibet, from China, from Japan, etc.? Such talk seems to make the rift between Eastern Buddhism and Western Buddhism even wider. Is there not a middle path?

If it wasn't for Eastern Buddhism would there be a Western Buddhism?


The problem with "People in the world, including the Thai people, are now in the same situation as were the Kalama people of Kesaputtanigama, India, during the time of the Buddha." is that the Thai people embraced Buddhism way before Buddhism became known in the Western countries whereas the Kalamas, apparently never did embrace Buddhism.


I thought we were going to 'discuss' this Sutta, not cut and paste what others have written. What I wanted was not somebody else's viewpoint but was looking forward to reading what you personally believe.

[sky]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Apparently you still have issues with Thai people.

Could we not say very similar things from people from Tibet, from China, from Japan, etc.? Such talk seems to make the rift between Eastern Buddhism and Western Buddhism even wider. Is there not a middle path?

If it wasn't for Eastern Buddhism would there be a Western Buddhism?


The problem with "People in the world, including the Thai people, are now in the same situation as were the Kalama people of Kesaputtanigama, India, during the time of the Buddha." is that the Thai people embraced Buddhism way before Buddhism became known in the Western countries whereas the Kalamas, apparently never did embrace Buddhism.


I thought we were going to 'discuss' this Sutta, not cut and paste what others have written. What I wanted was not somebody else's viewpoint but was looking forward to reading what you personally believe.

I have tried a few times to explain the Myths in Folklore Buddhism and how and why they are used, It's better if you use Buddhist Scholars to help you understand otherwise we go around in circles.

I have no problem with anyone from any Culture.

I remember reading a very good Dissertation from the University of Thailand and written by a Thai, it's very good and explains Folklore in Buddhism quite eloquently I will share some of it later.... It may help you....


What I personally think of the Kalama Sutta is exactly what Buddha taught.

[sky]

The Roles of the Buddha in Thai Myths: Reflections on the Attempt to Integrate Buddhism into Thai Local Beliefs.



This article aims at identifying the roles of the Buddha in Thai myths in order to explain how the Thai were able to integrate Buddhism into their indigenous beliefs. Certain myths played an important role in recording the conflicts in the minds of Thai ancestors as to whether they should continue to hold to indigenous beliefs or whether they should adopt Buddhism. The roles played by the Buddha in certain myths reflect the fact that the Buddha took over roles that were once performed by local gods. Such roles were the provision of fertility, light and water. Attitudes of the Thai embedded in the myths offer insight into the mechanism through which Buddhism was able to be integrated into the indigenous belief system.


Poramin Jaruworn
Chulalongkorn University, Thailand.
Journal of Humanities....

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Poramin_Jaruworn/2

Poramin Jaruworn studied Folklore Buddhism..

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by sky123

I have tried a few times to explain the Myths in Folklore Buddhism and how and why they are used, It's better if you use Buddhist Scholars to help you understand otherwise we go around in circles.

I have no problem with anyone from any Culture.

I remember reading a very good Dissertation from the University of Thailand and written by a Thai, it's very good and explains Folklore in Buddhism quite eloquently I will share some of it later.... It may help you....


What I personally think of the Kalama Sutta is exactly what Buddha taught.

Buddhism is considered by some, to have more myths, fairy tales, etc. then any other religion. Having written that, why was the Tripitaka written with so many 'myths' is a question that can not be answered. In order to claim the Tripitaka has a lot of myths, one would have to know as a fact that something written is a myth. For example, most Western Buddhists consider Devas as being myths. This implies they know for a fact they do not exist but also implies the claim that what we know today is all there is to know. The fallacy of such thinking is we believe in a Universe we can not define and then there is the possibility there might be other Universes. We could erroneously conclude with this thinking "Is the Universe and the possibility of other Universes fairy tales?"


The same issue happens in Christianity. The Bible speaks of Angels which most people have never seen. Because they never saw an Angel, it must be true Angels do not exist. As much as somebody says there are not Angels, it still does not prove or disprove that Angels exist.

In Judaism, people claim the Hebrew Bible contains many myths. For example there is what some call the creation account(s). In its simplistic form, they claim it could not have happen while at the same time providing no other credible explanation as to how life came into existence.

When it comes to 'things' that can not be fully disputed, I leave with an open mind that it could have happened or not happened. Without more information, I can not draw a proper conclusion.

You make the claim the Tripitaka is riddled with myths, then let's look at one of the myths some claim exists. Some Western Buddhists believe Buddha never existed. Do you have one iota of proof Buddha did exist?

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by sky123

The Roles of the Buddha in Thai Myths: Reflections on the Attempt to Integrate Buddhism into Thai Local Beliefs.



This article aims at identifying the roles of the Buddha in Thai myths in order to explain how the Thai were able to integrate Buddhism into their indigenous beliefs. Certain myths played an important role in recording the conflicts in the minds of Thai ancestors as to whether they should continue to hold to indigenous beliefs or whether they should adopt Buddhism. The roles played by the Buddha in certain myths reflect the fact that the Buddha took over roles that were once performed by local gods. Such roles were the provision of fertility, light and water. Attitudes of the Thai embedded in the myths offer insight into the mechanism through which Buddhism was able to be integrated into the indigenous belief system.


Poramin Jaruworn
Chulalongkorn University, Thailand.
Journal of Humanities....

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Poramin_Jaruworn/2

Poramin Jaruworn studied Folklore Buddhism..

If you go to the various Buddhist dominate countries, you will find what you call folklore common not just in Thailand but in all the dominate Buddhist countries. Their acknowledgement of other Buddhas is not only known by Thais but also other Buddhist in predominate Buddhist countries.

I have mentioned before the Pagan Temples: are they also part of the fairy tales?

[BigJohn]

Such entities as Buddhists Devas are considered by some Buddhists to be Fairy Tales. I suspect part of the problem is that some might not be aware of the Thirty-one Planes of Existence in Buddhism.

If you go into a Temple in a Buddhist dominate country, this becomes obvious. The Pagan Temples are excellent examples.


Accesstoinsight.org has an interesting article dealing with this subject. The article can be found here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/...agga/loka.html

[sky]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Such entities as Buddhists Devas are considered by some Buddhists to be Fairy Tales. I suspect part of the problem is that some might not be aware of the Thirty-one Planes of Existence in Buddhism.

If you go into a Temple in a Buddhist dominate country, this becomes obvious. The Pagan Temples are excellent examples.


Accesstoinsight.org has an interesting article dealing with this subject. The article can be found here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/...agga/loka.html

They are not seen as Fairytales BJ but they are Metaphors for psychological states of mind...
You can research yourself what each Plane represents, very interesting.... While wondering
through Samsara each individual exists in various states of mind, Planes of Existence...

[BigJohn]

Maṅgala Buddha
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀

Maṅgala Buddha is extensively mentioned in the Buddhavamsa as the sixth Buddha from a list of 29 Buddhas. Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha is the current and is also the 28th Buddha. The 29th Buddha is the Buddha of the Future, and that is Maitreya.

We have already discussed the first five Buddhas. They are:

►             Taṇhaṅkara Buddha
►►          Medhaṅkara Buddha
►►►       Saraṇaṅkara Buddha
►►►►    Dīpankara Buddha
►►►►► Koṇḍañña Buddha.

The Buddhavamsa gives the history of the 27 Buddhas who proceeded Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha during the last twelve world cycles (kappas). The Four Nikāyas make no mention of the 29 Buddhas. In the Dīgha Nikāya, only six of the Buddhas are enumerated.