Non Duality and Spiritual Bypassing ?

Originally Posted by God-Like

It's no good saying it's what I believe and it's important to me lol whist removing the same structure of what beliefs are from your very self .

So it's not what you believe then?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Gem

The full analysis of right understanding or right view concludes with no view is right view, but the partial analysis merely proposes that we can understand the underlying nature of things. Eg. impermanence, no-self, emptiness and all that.

Keep in mind that I concluded my post with:

You have raised an interesting point about "Right Thought" but my understanding is that "Right Understanding" precedes "Right Thought" .... until one intuitively "knows without thinking". That is the point at which words fail.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 174 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Right Thinking probably has the most direct relationship with Right Understanding and the other 'Rights' follow on from there, because thoughts and speech are often a result of thinking.

... it's common sense that Spirituality comes from our noggins and doesn't just appear out of nowhere.

I agree with your point that Right Thinking does indeed have the most direct relationship with Right Understanding ... and that the other "Rights" follow on from there. In my previous post, that is what I intended to say and it seems to echo your sentiments as well.

As for your comment that "it's common sense that Spirituality comes from our noggins and doesn't just appear out of nowhere", could you elaborate further on that point. By "our noggins", do you mean the brain or something else?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

So it's not what you believe then?

It's irrelevant what I believe in any instance because I don't deny my beliefs . Like said you can declare that you don't believe the world to be illusory but that is a belief in itself .

I have been asking how it is so that we can both say what we say and you don't associate it with a belief you have .

I have said that our beliefs are inherent within self awareness when perceiving the world .

The world perceived and believed not to be illusory as you implied is based upon your perception of the world and how you perceive the world is reflected in your behaviour and in regards to what you think and what you say .

The fact that you say you believe the world is not illusory contains a word that describes your belief .


We can agree to disagree that's not a problem ..



x daz x

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 156 EXCERPT:



I have had extensive discussions on the Eightfold Path and I have gravitated to the following translation:

Right Understanding
Right Thought
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Meditation
Right Concentration

In discussions with the Buddhist monks, it was interesting (and logical as well) to hear that "Right Understanding" is not only the first step but is a repetitive step in the cycle of progressive evolution.

Would you like to say something about how the Noble 8 Fold Path is related to the 5 precepts ?

To refrain from harming any living being
To refrain from taking what is not offered
To refrain from sexual and sensual misconduct
To refrain from false speech (including idle gossip, harsh and divisive speech)
To refrain from taking substances which disturb the balance of the mind.

The Buddha is purported to have said without 'Sila' or (Moral Conduct) you are like a boatman trying desperately to get to the other shore but the rope remains tied to the river bank.

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[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Perfect, like beauty and so many other things, is in the eye of the beholder. I'd think it has more to do with the lack of cognitive dissonance or the Limbic System and it suiting one's own paradigm. But it's about the reasons we use the word and how it's used that really matters, everything else is veneer.

I Believe there's a Morning not followed by night Best Regards Joe.

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Originally Posted by Still_Waters

As for your comment that "it's common sense that Spirituality comes from our noggins and doesn't just appear out of nowhere", could you elaborate further on that point. By "our noggins", do you mean the brain or something else?

Spirituality and schizophrenia light up the same areas of the brain, so certainly the brain. All information is processed by the brain, and often 'hardwiring' can affect how the information is processed. Then there's the Gestalt of the ego as you put it, the various aspects of the unconscious that create the ego and process our internal realities. The brain is pretty much benign because it simply processes the information, but when it finds its way into the regions of psychology it's a different matter.

So keeping the thread on track, broadly speaking the brain deals with the 'What?' of unadorned information and the psychology is the 'How?' information becomes Spiritual or not, beliefs or not and so forth. It's in the psychology that a 'bad experience' becomes a 'lesson', or is karma from a Past Life experience. As I understand it that's how the process works. Spiritual bypassing happens when people don't want to know about what's in their noggins or denies it has anything to do with the process. The irony is that both Spirituality and psychology say differently. The ancients knew about the destructive cognitive behaviour of 'Spiritual bypassing' and would have made something of Spirituality existing in splendid isolation.

Originally Posted by God-Like

I have been asking how it is so that we can both say what we say and you don't associate it with a belief you have .

It's because you have a lack of understanding and since this is a thread about Spiritual bypassing, you bypass what doesn't suit your paradigm. Psychologically-speaking that's destructive cognitive behaviour.

https://www.psychologyville.com/wher...efs-come-from/

"We form beliefs to reduce uncertainty. That explains the origin of conspiracy theories in a time of calamity, for example. According to Prooijen, Douglas, and De Inosensio, “Conspiracy theories reinforce a belief that nothing in the world happens through coincidence”. Conspiracy theories are a coping mechanism for dealing with uncertainty. That may be why some people believe that the experts are hiding the news of hydroxychloroquine from us and that an effective cure exists.

We vary a lot in our tolerance for uncertainty and in our ignorance."

In this human form that 'I' inhabit I know without uncertainty that the world is not an illusion and that if I jump off a high place it's going to hurt. So while I may have an experience that my noggin can conjure up on the way down, my head splattered across the floor is a fact and not a belief. Same with the injuries I've had in the past from falling.

Y'see Dazza, having beliefs doesn't mean anyone is clever, beliefs mean that they're not so clever as they thought they were and their individual egos can't deal with the uncertainty. I don't have that problem because my individual ego is fine with not knowing. I'd rather file uncertainty away for the moment because past experience has showed me that it will be resolved come time. I'm also very choosy about what I ingest because not only do I understand the nature of beliefs I understand how any old belief is just garbage in, garbage out.

When you know for certain it's not a belief any more.

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

I Believe there's a Morning not followed by night Best Regards Joe.

The night has it's own raisons d'etre, or reasons it exists. Beliefs are merely the surface layer.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Would you like to say something about how the Noble 8 Fold Path is related to the 5 precepts ?

The Buddha is purported to have said without 'Sila' or (Moral Conduct) you are like a boatman trying desperately to get to the other shore but the rope remains tied to the river bank.

One of my favorite books on Buddhist meditation (The Buddhist Way of Meditation, Guide to Meditation Teachers ... by Ven. Weragoda Sarada Maha Thero), goes into the Eightfold Path step-by-step in exhaustive detail.

I think that you might find it to be as helpful as I did. It's actually good that you asked that question as I recalled sections of the book that related directly to your question regarding "Sila" (Moral Conduct).

He breaks down the Eightfold Path into 3 categories:

1. Wisdom/Panna (Right Understanding and Right Thought)

2. Morality/Sila (Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood,Right Effort)

3. Concentration/Samadhi (Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration)

His exhaustive discussion on the four steps grouped into Sila (Morality) above covers all of the 5 precepts that you identified plus a lot more.

NOTE 1: On a related note, Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras also start with Morality/Sila though Asthanga Yoga uses different terminology. The first two "limbs" in Pantanjali's yoga sutras are the Yamas (the avoidances or the "thou shalt nots" which have ahimsa/non-harming as the first of the 5) and the Niyamas (five observances starting with purity). As a matter of fact, Ghandi took two of his life-guiding principles (ahimsa/non-violence and satya/non-lying/truthfulness) directly from the very two first Yamas.

NOTE 2: It might be interesting to start a discussion on the Eightfold Path as I have just joined a Buddhist ZOOM group and that would be very much in keeping with where I am right now. Go for it if it interests you. I'll join you and I'm sure that GEM will probably chime in as well.