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  #81  
Old 23-04-2024, 06:26 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It's amazing how little choice is actually going on, and also amazing how things that are happening are interpreted as chosen.
I have to disagree with this. Sure, many things we do happen cruise control, but there are many conscious choices made as well. I do it every day. If you have plans or if you have to think things over, at work or elsewhere, you are activating your reasoning capacities and you will have to make choices. Sometimes things become very routine, like driving the same road every day, but you probably realize a joy again when you taste a different road.
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  #82  
Old 24-04-2024, 12:10 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
disagree with this.
I didn't say there are no conscious choices, which seems to be what you disagree with, but you can't just imagine I said something I didn't and claim to disagree, because although you rebuke, I agree with everything you said without changing my initial position. This implies you don;t disagree with what I think, but you disagree with with what you think I think.

I'm just skeptical that isolated lifestyles are chosen, even if it's preferred. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but using an exception to the rule as a counterpoint actually supports the claim rather than provides evidence against it. Like if I say people have ten fingers, and another says I know someone with only nine - that actually supports the rule by citing the exception to it. Likewise, people will disagree and say, I know someone who chose it and has no influencing hangups, but generally speaking, the increasing incidence of lonesome lifestyles isn't chosen and it's rarely preferred.

In my case it isn't chosen because personal issues make me more remote, and most lonesome folks have issues like that. Plus then there are overall social trends that influence increasingly lone ways of life.

On this forum we want to say its spiritual, but then you find out that self-proclaimed lonesome people have a best mate and close friends, which... how is that a lonesome way?. A lonesome way is by definition having no one to turn to. For me it's different. No partner, no friends and I do everything on my own, but because I get along with my siblings and their kids - I think those are close relationships, and I don't feel lonely.
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  #83  
Old 24-04-2024, 12:15 AM
Maisy Maisy is offline
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Well we are conditioned to think we are making choices anyway. The brain is doing billions of calculations a second to make our thoughts. We are aware of zero of those calculations and have nothing to do with their creation. Eventually we are conscious of the final product, thoughts, and assume they are from ourselves. Then onward goes the delusional life. If we are not the maker of our thoughts, conscious awareness, then how can we be in control of anything? Choice would be a fiction from the brain. What better way to convince us there is a self than to make it think it is making choices.
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  #84  
Old 24-04-2024, 12:25 AM
Maisy Maisy is offline
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What is an individual conscious awareness if not a self? Well it is a witness, an observer, that usually is tricked into believing it is a person and feels guilt and so on over things that happened due to identification with the life the brain is making. "I did this and that." Did we really? We can wake up, go to the bathroom and brush our teeth, make and eat breakfast, and drive to work and have every one of those things be done by the brain. We don't even have to pay attention. We can live on auto pilot. We can even talk with others and have the brain behind all of it.

Buddhism teaches there is no self or such and such is non-self or we are empty or whatever idea we like or don't like according to how our brain makes our thoughts. Can one be free of all thought? Worth a try I think! But then my brain thought that thought. My brain made every word I typed in this post. Don't believe the reality of any of it!
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  #85  
Old 24-04-2024, 12:42 AM
Maisy Maisy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Likewise, people will disagree and say,

The brain likes to disagree as that gives one a sense of self I think. Like I am this unique individual that knows stuff. More than this other person. I believe x y z lol. It's all just words. What reality does a word have? It's wholly conceptual. In the mind or imagination. Though one could say something objectively true I suppose. Like the sky is blue... but then I've been disagreed with a lot even with that idea. Blue is subjective as somebody may be standing where it is black or pink etc. There is also no way to be sure we are seeing the same thing no matter words we agree on to say. It's been proven we have different taste. So we all say apple, but we are tasting different things.
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  #86  
Old 24-04-2024, 01:02 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maisy
The brain likes to disagree
A lot of people don't realise that a lot of what they think are choices are really only psychological reactions impelling them to this and that. Even the mind that leaps to disagree and agree is usually just being reactive, and I find that when people disagree with me, I actually agree with them, so I'm not sure what's going on there, but it's all context and nuance. However, there is such a thing as being wrong, misguided, deluded and so on, and I think most of us are at a most fundamental level. I'm more comfortable with uncertainty that the average bear, and I can tell you for free, everything I say I know ends up dissolving where the mind reaches its comprehensive limit, and ironically, what I am certain and doubtless about is entirely subjective: "this is what it's like".
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  #87  
Old 29-04-2024, 06:16 PM
Maisy Maisy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
However, there is such a thing as being wrong, misguided, deluded and so on, and I think most of us are at a most fundamental level.

I kinda feel like this "thought" thing is the key to everything. Much bigger than anyone realizes. Like techniques and so on are "person" driven. Ego in other words. The "I" which is the result of the past and memory and conditioning, that is pretty much interwoven with the "thought" produced by the brain, that "I" is what tries for this "spiritual" stuff thus why time and techniques are involved. These comments here in forums, one clearly sees "persons" with memories and habits and so on. The same ideas or beliefs are repeated over and over. The same patterns and habits. I could read posts and know who typed it without seeing names sometimes. Mine as well others could. Not all posts give away the writers "ego" though. But we carry it and are it in a sense. We are this person. (but not really)

If we let go of all thoughts, all beliefs, because of this self understanding, and pursue nothing except for the truth of who and what I am and what "this" truly is, because the true "I" cannot be a product of ones memory and conditioning and beliefs and drives and thoughts and content and so on, the observer only that carries this understanding of truth. In that all pursuit ends. All seeking. Pursuing and seeking requires "one" to seek and that one is the person built of carried conditioning and beliefs and thoughts and assumptions and so on.

I think that's the key and what mystics discovered. It is taught I think here and there but the "person" hears the teachings so one never truly changes in a fundamental way. One never quite gets there. To get there or be there would be ongoing as the "person" would take over ones consciousness from time to time. But I think that would be the true path. One in which we "see" for some time then probably lose it and back to ego, going back to being this "person" we have developed over time.

In the now to be completely free of all mind generated content is not hard I don't think. But sustaining it is hard. But then I think initially it is hard as one is not willing to drop all belief or they don't understand what that means. Typically one "thinks" about what it is or how one does it which means again they are the "person" trying to be spiritual or get whatever they picture is the thing. Yea I think it is hard lol. Our "go to" tool for everything is the ego or person. This is not using that in anyway. It is dropping it entirely. Being empty. Being one with everything. Zero resistance or conflict with anything. Zero interest in the past or future. No desires or judgement. Seeking nothing. Wanting to change nothing. Just being as the aspects of the true self.
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  #88  
Old 01-05-2024, 09:02 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maisy
time and techniques are involved.

If we let go of all thoughts, all beliefs,pursue nothing except for the truth of who and what I am and what "this" truly is Pursuing and seeking

One never quite gets there. To be there would be ongoing One in which we "see" for some time then probably lose it and back to ego,
In the now to be completely free of all mind generated content sustaining it is hard. "person" trying to be spiritual or get whatever Zero resistance past or future. No desires or judgement. Seeking nothing. Wanting to change nothing.
It sounds like mindfulness, but since people are not particularly conscious, and actually avoid themselves as they are which trying t5o become somebody they should be, the idea is to be conscious with understanding that you can only be aware of 'this' just as it is right now. If you try it, you notice that you have to stop to notice the reality of this moment. From that small experiment you can see 'what meditation is', and because you know what it is, you automatically know how to do it.

Since this is refined in formal practice like breath awareness, it's this breath, just this one, and knowing 'this is what it's like'. I think for most people, if they don't introduce a formal practice with a schedule, they just continue in a state of distraction, so I advocate practice, but I'm specific about what that is.

All the methods that require you to do something, directly contradict what I talk about as meditation. Of course, if someone is a habitual mantra meditator or something, that will continue to happen unintentionally because it's ingrained as a tendency, but like everything else, if you cease feeding it (with importance) it occurs less frequently and at some point it never occurs to you again.

The objective is more serious that doing this so that can be that can be experienced (which is craving) because people generate their own suffering. The mind is also wounded and carries old things it has to avoid. People can flip out if they are pushed beyond their limitation to keep an even keel, which is why those parts of the psyche were hidden away in the first place. One has to survive today, and if some traumatic situation undermines today's survival, it has to be put away and revisited when it's 'safe' to do so.

All the conditions have to come together. If a person is in a traumatic situation, then better not 'open up' in the way that mindfulness opens you, because at your most vulnerable, the crass people who want something from you will see their chance and twist the blade, and you'll be worse off. One has to look at the overall life situation and assess what is not conducive to their ultimate well-being - and, take a step to set it right.

It requires some support, real trust. Hence we have a responsibility to truthfulness, non-judgementality and basic kindness because we understand that these are the conditions in which trust flourishes. It's the principle we call 'Refuge'.

Anyway. It's not me. It's us, and everything in the whole universe works as one. Us individuals just have our little part to play, and it's a fine art to leave that space for everyone and everything to 'be as it is'.
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  #89  
Old 06-05-2024, 04:18 PM
Maisy Maisy is offline
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It works both ways I think. To listen to somebody else is to listen to yourself. To "listen" to yourself is to engage with ego I reason. One might think, am I not listening to myself as I write this? I am certainly focusing on one subject based on experiences. Contemplating understanding and the nature of the what is as it relates to entanglement with emotions. The idea of freedom from myself and the awareness or observation of how "entanglement" comes about. Emotional and intellectual and thought entanglement with others and with oneself.

But then "to not engage" means solitary I assume. But then one can engage with ego all alone. Though others around means one will be forced to engage in some respect. And if I engage with them, I engage with myself. It's probably not practical nor "spiritually" advantageous to lead a hermit like solitary life. It probably has benefits but then like I said, being alone does not necessarily mean we will not be engaging with our own ego. I think the reality is "all are one" in some way. So one needs to "engage" in some way. It is probably our purpose and if one is advanced in some small way, one must share that in some way.

Maybe just commit to emptiness awareness and observe interactions so that one can be "present" as conscious awareness, while not "engaging" ones ego which will trigger emotional responses. I think language in itself added to others brains biased reactions and the "defense centered" nature of egos will always lead to misunderstanding and conflict as I assume it is designed to do. The tricky part is perhaps to be here now, without engaging with ones own ego no matter what circumstances might be present. If I am not engaging with my own ego, I am still engaging just as something else. A vessel of emptiness.
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