Non-duality as devotion or concentration

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Starman

For sometime now I have been observing how energy moves, or how abstract non-duality becomes a dualistic form.
There is no way that we can not create and we create in this physical dualistic existence by using the creative force of non-duali?

Star man I always appreciate your thoughts, I’m curious about this bit.

If you’re observing energy and how it moves then why can’t non dual be an energy, manifested through the creative expression?

If you have embodied the energy then regardless of the creative movements, that energy is what directs the form into being you..

As an example the energy is what creates the scene before any creative expression is released. So that embodiment I’m speaking of, includes energy as one with other integration.

Another example is ‘the flow’ state. I would say non duality in this way is a unification between subject and object, where boundaries between self and others dissolve. In this view, the potential to express from flow state is very much ‘full immersion’ …

In an ever present flowing orientation of silence, carrying no residue of the past and looking not in the future,
we embrace and release each pulsation fully and completely,
thus becoming the unending renewal itself, effortlessly.
Mind applies effort, heart celebrates. -Unseeking seeker

[Starman]

Very interesting JustBe but I think it depends on a person’s orientation or conditioning towards non-duality. What if I do not believe in non-duality? From my perspective non-duality will still impact our lives regardless whether we believe or experience it or not. But that is just my bias opinion based on interpretation of my own experiences.

A pious person may have a different perspective, there is also a different perspective if we use a metaphysical orientation, or a theological orientation, a philosophical perspective, or theosophical perspective. We can take a mechanistic approach, an anthropomorphic approach, or look at it through the lens of systems theory. Perspective itself creates the drama and in my opinion many seek to continue the dualistic drama even after physical death while they exist in non-duality, with teachings of a drama in the afterlife.

The subjective and objective feature of consciousness is very interesting. It seems the more expansive we become the more subjective we become. To closely identify with our physical form automatically gives us an objective perspective; if we are a separate form then other forms are separate objective entities as well. But in a more expanded state we can experience a highly subjective oneness of being. The laws of physics as observed in duality are much different in non-duality. In my opinion logic and reasoning does not apply.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Starman

Very interesting JustBe but I think it depends on a person’s orientation or conditioning towards non-duality. What if I do not believe in non-duality? From my perspective non-duality will still impact our lives regardless whether we believe or experience it or not. .

Just because you don’t believe or have the language or experience of these things, doesn’t mean the potential of seeds lays within all life in what’s we form it’s expressed. We each are little seeds of potential in the greater field of consciousness.

Your opening comment is almost contradictory, if you don’t mind me sharing?

Also too, when you say, there is no way you can create as non dual, my feelers went up. No way means your certain..which means your minds made up.

As for death, I tend to see the end of life here passing through its letting go process of the body, returns to wholeness. I’ve witnessed a number of deaths as have you and each one I noted in their letting go, bearing closure and opening to the nature of wholeness. All through various stages as one. I can’t be certain of course, but base it only on people and processors, I’ve witnessed. As well as bearing witness to their spirit still moving through this realm, I see that they affected in ways, more directly out of body, others in their body, that broke though their own barriers, holding on to stuff not aligned to their own true state.

Humans are energy, energy is energy..without body that energetic system as I see it, vibrates as complete, there is nothing impeding that flow of life force. There is nothing to complete in this way. Most certainly, they may have unfinished business for others, still in the body. I’ve witnessed more directly this kind of thing. Of course it doesn’t have to fit anyone else’s view. If I didn’t have direct experience, I wouldn’t believe in what was shown to me or what I’ve experienced.

Of course there will be plenty who disagree with me. I’m ok with this.

[Starman]

My Friend, I am about as certain of our inability to not create as you are about death being a passing of letting go. In both cases it is our observations which lead us to these conclusions, but observations are not static. This is most evident in art; looking at a picture frequently the observer may see something new, or different, each time, or at least as their insights of what they are observing deepen.

How we interpret things are more about us than it is the things that we, or I, interpret. The more we elaborate or interpret something, the closer or further away from that something we may get. Perspective for some unfolds differently than for others; no right or wrong, just growth within faith of the heart. In my opinion if we create a static view that view has the potential of becoming a dogmatic religion.

Yes, I agree and embrace that we are as seeds, and the question is “how many apples are in an apple seed? What we bring forth, express, or create, for better or worst may bear fruit. Its’ only “bad” if we can not find a worthwhile use for it. I experience that the foundation of creation is love; regardless how we may interpret it otherwise. Love is a bridge that joins things together. I experience all motion as circular.

Me, having experienced great pain in the past, that pain has helped me appreciate experience and not take for granted joy in the present. But it could have gone the other way; as pain and fear can also lead us to build walls. Although even building walls may have a deeper significance yet to be revealed in the process of perspective.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Starman

My Friend, I am about as certain of our inability to not create as you are about death being a passing of letting go. In both cases it is our observations which lead us to these conclusions, but observations are not static. This is most But it could have gone the other way; as pain and fear can also lead us to build walls. Although even building walls may have a deeper significance yet to be revealed in the process of perspective.

When all interpretation of experience ceases, in the stillness and silence, we are simply a living breathing vessel experiencing ourselves through a whole network of abilities to do just that.

My direct experience with spirit to clean me out, of those deeper holds, had all kinds of interpretations simply because I was using my mind and awareness up to that point to give reason, idea, feelings understanding to what I was experiencing. Necessary only to understand, let go of processing and move forward from them.

In hindsight and growth many years after this time, ( where I’m not chasing my own tail) my awareness looks back and sees that I created something from what was only merging with me, to let go of everything no longer required for living my life ‘complete’ ..

The spirit field consciousness that I merged with naturally released me from my own confinements. That direct experience, at the time if I look at it now, as a passing through process, is an activation of sorts to release one from their own confinements/unfinished business. Where everything merges back to source..

All in all I’m happy living as the mystery beyond my own experiences..

[Starman]

JustBe, I simply loved what you have shared; it had a depth of intimacy to it. I wrote a piece some decades ago about how we live and have our being in our own awareness. Most likely we live and have our being in a greater existence beyond our own awareness. Awareness seems to also be a process always in progress,

Our closely held Interpretations influence the kind of fruit we bring forth as a seed planted here on Earth. Youth is like a germination period. I embrace that duality is but a created form reflected by non-duality. In my opinion non-duality dwarfs duality, and duality can not exist without non-duality. So as it appears to me, yet they are of the same substance at their core..

[JustBe]

@starman I suppose when spirit is reaching into your depths directly felt and experienced one naturally emits such energy through the expression. It can only be understood through one’s own depth aware and clear to know and feel such things..

I think when we feel and perceive we are born into separation, humans develop all kinds of symbols, words and ideas to describe what we experience. Dual and non dual in me, now lays as merging point of ‘old and new’ forming a new path. Both sides support new life.. all sides inclusive to my becoming.

Talking about dual and non dual from a perceived seperate self in feeling, I would be speaking entirely different. I’ve never looked at my process through dual and non dual experience, so I can only relate to how it feels where I reside now when it’s bought up. I can see why it exists, why humans decide in such things.

All things as completion eyes, see life complete.. even if I’m aware it might not be acting, seeing or feeling that way.

So there is my entry into the world, which is neither dual or non dual, but rather just being myself complete as I am..

Others meeting me might see me through their dual eyes and feelings, or non dual eyes or both, they can only perceive me through what they know themselves as.

So being in all this doesn’t mean I lose what I am aware of. So all things exist as others create and keep their world made up as. But am I, as the creator and experiencer, who has let it all go, identifying only with life itself, the rest is non existent as I’m aware of in me, even thought others keep it’s existence alive in many forms of both..

That’s how I perceive myself, how I move through life.

If anyone describes wholeness as moving through life as non dual existence then that might fit. I can see how it might..I may be still participating in both, but my integration through my body informs and aligns to the world as I am aware and open as.

When you say non duality dwarfs duality, how so?

I think we can exist with an awareness of life in its movements as it is, I don’t think we have to know as much as we think as humans but then it serves to let everything go..

We know soooo much to filter our being into a state of simplicity of being.

[Starman]

I embrace that knowing in the heart is a lot different than knowing in the head. The human mind wants to crystallize and codify while the heart functions best in the pure flow of the primordial. I do not think of myself or conceptualize myself beyond the use of the word, or symbol, “I.”

I have played many roles according to how I perceived things to be in certain positions of employment, and other relationships, all grist for the mill in developing a conscience and building a self determined sacred space within myself.

On some level it just may be a thought within a thought, within a thought. I feel strongly that existence is all about learning and the number one subject of our learning, in my opinion, is ourselves. Regardless whether we are sharing it in words, symbols, music, or silence, we are sharing ourselves and what we feel we have learned.

Science has stated that the universe is curved, esoteric philosophy states that all motion in physical reality is circular. The Hebrew Kabbalah states (paraphrased) what we as humans refer to as “non-dual,” or one-ness, is primordial and infinite, while existing in a finite physical existence is temporary and consists of polarizing opposites.

Embracing this paradigm; by its very nature it is speculated non-duality exists beyond where duality is able to exist. Other words for Non-Duality are, one-ness, merging, spirit, unified, etc. While the term duality infers opposites, pros and cons, differences, right and wrong, etc. Personally I am still learning and growing in my perception of the one and the many.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by winter light

T. For me at least. Where the experience of non-duality is one where you are completely immersed in some devotion or concentration upon either the presence of another sentient being or to a worthwhile activity or cause.

Devotion or merging requires 2 separate entities . So while its extremely divine and sublime , its still a duality in technical terms . This is not to suggest devotion/concentration is not required . In fact devotion /concentration is of paramount importance at all stages of life.

In order to have vivid understanding of this , we would look at life itself how it works . We have normally sleep state or awake state (would exclude other states like dream / oneness for the purpose of this discussion) . In sleep we dont have anything . We dont know anybody while in sleep . Yet we experience bliss , our fatigue vanishes , we are refreshed , our pains /worries mitigated , our hopes brightened , we replenished with new energy/vigor .
Now when we are awake , entire world comes to life -we fear , we collaborate, we inspire others , get inspired from others , we play with others , we deal with people / thoughts /materials , we see varied hues/shades of life in its vibrancy and may feel excitement and may really discover the purpose and goal of life . In the whole process, we do get tired as we spend our energies behind activity in awake state.

Now if someone asks a question if do we need sleep or awake state ,People will say that's a irrelevant question and rightly so. Because we need both . Duality that facilitates smooth flow of life is great - is indeed required. And duality that discriminates into superior/inferior arbitrarily is antithetical and inimical to life - is not required.

Now if u see the sleep hours (which I call it God compulsory reserved oneness to re-energize us) are less compared to activity hours (where we loose our energy though we are at complete freedom what to do / not to do during these hours) . Here lies the mystery . If we dont do anything in our activity time , our granted energy is wasted/rusted/frittered away and we loose the opportunity to experience life in its vivid colors.
If we spend full time doing something , we spend our energies more than we earn in our sleep thereby experiencing the burnout/becoming ill fatigued aged. So there is mystery of maintaining spirit balance in life.

The key lies in experiencing non-duality also in activity states (meditation / concentration / good and sublime activity like donation / teaching / fighting for a noble cause / sharing insights etc which facilitates the journey of life for all concerned ) whereby we learn also life's ways and also retain the balance of life in us.

All this requires tremendous love for life and we can modulate between non-duality and duality states seamlessly intensely for our development.

You can do good deeds in life only when you associate/identify/empathize with others and become one with others in their grief /joy and experience non-duality in limited measure.

So besides concentration / devotion rituals , good deeds too can give lead us to non-duality experience.

[winter light]

Originally Posted by JustBe

... we are all merging together in life all the time. Whether consciously or not.

I like how you referred to shared space and merging together all of the time. Each relationship is like this and those are within a greater shared space related with everyone else. This is a part of the concentration aspect. In a close moment it seems like everything else falls away but that is just appearance and it is temporary. The connections ebb and flow in waves of compression and release as we move our attention from one momentary relationship to the next.

And to some degree can be activated or sustained or repeated when done with awareness. We never have complete control but through our presence and intention we have influence in the unfolding of our shared destinies.

I'm grateful for all of the thoughtful replies on this topic from everyone.