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  #41  
Old 10-08-2020, 02:10 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hey Moonie,

For sure these type of convo's go on and on and have done so for thousands of years




Individuality is expressed through this not knowing . Putting it crudely the Borg on start trek voyager illustrates what the differences are between the collective and the individual .To be at one with ones own self and ones own thoughts and feelings reflect individuality, the only defence of non duality is that this sense of oneself is false or dreamy or illusory or not real .



As some have already said there cannot be the hub without the spokes or there cannot be individuality without oneness because one wouldn't know the difference otherwise, there wouldn't be one without the other so to speak .

This is why there are individual / ordinary mind experiences and universal cosmic experiences . To have the transcendence to the universal oneness doesn't mean that the individual / ordinary mind experience was false .

There are simply different ways and means to experience and be aware of what we are .. and certain conditions and laws dictate what one is aware of or what one experiences .

I see traditions and practices and beliefs that seem to divide and try and nullify and negate another self aspect (like non duality)and the neti neti approach ...

All this negation and renouncing doesn't seem like unified Self - Oneness to to me .. it's seems to be the opposite in many instances . lol .


x daz x

Hi daz,

For me, duality/non-duality, self/no-self, depends upon how a person/group may understand, interpret, and come to view it.

I would say the self is not being denied, just that it is not the full picture. Although have come to learn many things about the self, don't know all about the physical interactions and thier effects, as well as Spirits own interactions and effects.

So, mainly go by what makes sense to me and confirmed through the various ways life may bring things.

Yes, there are those that may seem entrenched in his/her/group beliefs. There are those that may very well know, for all I know, lol.

I don't think non-duality denies that there is a self/individual. I think the "illusions" may be with in how an individual may think it is. Which is not necessarily the full picture or may be muddled by held beliefs about the self and the world, and will add Spirit, and that which may be believed is the only way.

Yes, as humans/physical beings there are differences in beliefs and what one may say. For me it takes the self to sort through all this, if desired, and find out for the self. Atleast on an individual basis.

It may appear to be divisive among ourselves with in our thinking and what may held as true. How what is being noticed in regards to influences we have upon each other and the world divisive with in the wholeness? There is a flow, so to speak, a connection of life here that is in union with what manifests and transpires. In that sense it is not divided.

Yes, most may not see it this way. Involved in thier own life and surviving and for some maintaining some sort of control/power.

How much do we really control? For me this is some of "illusion"/kidding that an individual may think he/she has. Perhaps just my take.

There is always the question; Who is having the experience?
Which may be another topic and leads down another rabbit hole.

Last edited by Moonglow : 10-08-2020 at 10:21 PM.
  #42  
Old 11-08-2020, 11:26 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
Hi daz,



I don't think non-duality denies that there is a self/individual. I think the "illusions" may be with in how an individual may think it is. Which is not necessarily the full picture or may be muddled by held beliefs about the self and the world, and will add Spirit, and that which may be believed is the only way.

D

Hey :)

Some hardcore non dualists would say they're cannot be individuality because individuality reflects twoness and not oneness .

This has been my argument that there can be individuality while not being separated from from what we all are fundamentally .

This is a lack of understanding oneness and individuality .

When there is an understanding that there can only be separation had or implied when theres individuality present one can then concoct a manner of all things about the individual that isn't actually true . It's a false premise built upon a sandy foundation .


x daz x
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Everything under the sun is in tune,but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.
  #43  
Old 11-08-2020, 12:22 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I am all that is a different concept to Self is all there is .

I am is individualised and Self is not .

So we have a mixed platform here ..

It would be true enough to say that I AM not all that but fundamentally I AM all that because there is only what you are present .

This is why also I AM is not the entirety or the absolute or the infinite but fundamentally there is no separation between finite and infinite, wave and the ocean.


x daz x

Yes, and I keep thinking I can use humor without using emojis.

Anyway, self is a concept created to differentiate one's self from that which is not, I from not I. I don't see how we can redefine it to ever completely have one without the other. Even if the separation is illusion from another perspective, from the perspective of "I" self is real and not "I', not self, is as well. From one perspective, the wave and ocean are one, from another, I can have a wave without an ocean, and an ocean without a wave, so they are two separate things. IMO, it seems both perspectives are equally valid, and though one perspective may utilize one or another more or less, I personally do not necessarily see a means or reason to value one above the other absolutely.
  #44  
Old 12-08-2020, 12:12 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hey :)

Some hardcore non dualists would say they're cannot be individuality because individuality reflects twoness and not oneness .

This has been my argument that there can be individuality while not being separated from from what we all are fundamentally .

This is a lack of understanding oneness and individuality .

When there is an understanding that there can only be separation had or implied when theres individuality present one can then concoct a manner of all things about the individual that isn't actually true . It's a false premise built upon a sandy foundation .


x daz x

Hey daz,

To me, it is whether someone views that the individual is of the One or seperate from the One. Or wholeness.

If seen as seperate, then where does the seperation exist? Is it in the way it is desired or thought to be or with in what manifests and transpire? What is thought can have the potential of creating all sorts of view points. The other is what gets created through what seems to me a natural way life may unfold.

Can agree creating individuality as being seperation is a bit of false premis, IMO. It can also be real for the individual if believed to be so. Either way is entwined with in the wholeness and the connections formed.

It is both individual, one, and each doing what they/it may do.

Unles someono feels, believes, or only see it as being one way or the other.
Which can lead into a sense of unworthiness, that just is not true. The way I am looking at this at present.

Perhaps we are expressing similar thoughts, just in our own way.

To me anyone hardcore about anything is not very flexable, so is it worth the effort?

I just enjoy the exchanges.

Each have his/her own understandings, knowing, and ways of living.

I notice and feel there are each being living its own life, but influenced by the other lives here as well (however small it may appear).

If someone speaks "All is One", then goes about attempting to show how the self/individual is seperate or anything that may not fall into a set view point,
I can see how this may seem contrary.

Suppose may depend upon whether the person is attempting to bring an understanding or defending a position.
  #45  
Old 12-08-2020, 09:43 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
Hey daz,

To me, it is whether someone views that the individual is of the One or seperate from the One. Or wholeness.

If seen as seperate, then where does the seperation exist? Is it in the way it is desired or thought to be or with in what manifests and transpire? What is thought can have the potential of creating all sorts of view points. The other is what gets created through what seems to me a natural way life may unfold.

Can agree creating individuality as being seperation is a bit of false premis, IMO. It can also be real for the individual if believed to be so. Either way is entwined with in the wholeness and the connections formed.

It is both individual, one, and each doing what they/it may do.

Unles someono feels, believes, or only see it as being one way or the other.
Which can lead into a sense of unworthiness, that just is not true. The way I am looking at this at present.

Perhaps we are expressing similar thoughts, just in our own way.

To me anyone hardcore about anything is not very flexable, so is it worth the effort?

I just enjoy the exchanges.

Each have his/her own understandings, knowing, and ways of living.

I notice and feel there are each being living its own life, but influenced by the other lives here as well (however small it may appear).

If someone speaks "All is One", then goes about attempting to show how the self/individual is seperate or anything that may not fall into a set view point,
I can see how this may seem contrary.

Suppose may depend upon whether the person is attempting to bring an understanding or defending a position.


Hello moonglow
People having a direct experience of oneness where by they see no edges, feel no separation, from the trees, stars, people, moon or even the moonglow, will be adamant and convincing in their lived, experienced reality. In both ‘feeling’ and seeing, it becomes what it is for them.

In Zen Buddhism, they speak about it as the experience where self and no self merge and what flows from that awareness and being state is ‘the middle path’ .. So the senses, memories and knowledge no longer filter through as seperation but rather the person is living from a ‘state of oneness’ directly.

Anyone, including daz who isn’t experiencing this directly, as his/their own experience would decide through their intellectual knowing of oneness, but still with an awareness of their individuation, but without direct experience, will always wonder why others support this state of being as they do. You cannot argue or challenge direct experience, it’s exactly as it is experienced. For those in this field of reality, they become that field and the reality. Whether it’s a short time or a long time, most often as I’ve experienced with them, it’s often extreme without self concept or individuation because everything falls away and they are immersed in this direct experience of oneness.
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Your trials did not come to punish you, but to awaken you - to make you realise that you are a part of Spirit and that just behind the sparks of your life is
the Flame of Infinity.
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  #46  
Old 12-08-2020, 11:48 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Yes, and I keep thinking I can use humor without using emojis.

Anyway, self is a concept created to differentiate one's self from that which is not, I from not I. I don't see how we can redefine it to ever completely have one without the other. Even if the separation is illusion from another perspective, from the perspective of "I" self is real and not "I', not self, is as well. From one perspective, the wave and ocean are one, from another, I can have a wave without an ocean, and an ocean without a wave, so they are two separate things. IMO, it seems both perspectives are equally valid, and though one perspective may utilize one or another more or less, I personally do not necessarily see a means or reason to value one above the other absolutely.


I simply relate to self as a thought of oneself and this has to incorporate and reflect I AM awareness .

no self therefore would reflect no I AM awareness, so all this no self talk while running around typing on forums and such likes is incorrect . As just said on the other thread it would be as silly as a silly sausage to run around saying I AM not here .

I am cool with different perspectives and understanding what is said and implied within different contexts but at the end of the day a process of questioning and a process of elimination will determine whether or not a concept add up or not .


x daz x
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Everything under the sun is in tune,but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.
  #47  
Old 12-08-2020, 12:03 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
Hey daz,

To me, it is whether someone views that the individual is of the One or seperate from the One. Or wholeness.

If seen as seperate, then where does the seperation exist? Is it in the way it is desired or thought to be or with in what manifests and transpire? What is thought can have the potential of creating all sorts of view points. The other is what gets created through what seems to me a natural way life may unfold.

Hey Mate ..

It all depends on how one perceives themselves in reflection of everything else doesn't it . A peep that believes they are a separate peep means that this sense of oneself reflects in all things . This boils down to the relative truth and one's beliefs . Of course as always there are many levels to separation that is why fundamentally in my eyes oneness per se only relates to a fundamental level of sameness, so there cannot be any separation fundamentally regarding what we are and what all things are .



Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
agree creating individuality as being seperation is a bit of false premis, IMO. It can also be real for the individual if believed to be so. Either way is entwined with in the wholeness and the connections formed.

It is both individual, one, and each doing what they/it may do.

Yes, the whole aspect of individuality being false or illusory is based solely on the notion that individuality is regarded as a separate person from what they are fundamentally . This is one of the biggest flaws in non duality when non duality refers to there is only ONE . It's totally misconceived . ONE'NESS could easily be replaced with 'what you are fundamentally' and much of the misunderstandings would vanish . Its because there is misunderstanding of oneness then everything from this point gets misunderstood too .



Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
someono feels, believes, or only see it as being one way or the other.
Which can lead into a sense of unworthiness, that just is not true. The way I am looking at this at present.

Perhaps we are expressing similar thoughts, just in our own way.

To me anyone hardcore about anything is not very flexable, so is it worth the effort?

I just enjoy the exchanges.

Each have his/her own understandings, knowing, and ways of living.

I notice and feel there are each being living its own life, but influenced by the other lives here as well (however small it may appear).

If someone speaks "All is One", then goes about attempting to show how the self/individual is seperate or anything that may not fall into a set view point,
I can see how this may seem contrary.

Suppose may depend upon whether the person is attempting to bring an understanding or defending a position.

I agree hardcore non dualists or extremists in any playing field won't really encompass flexibility in regards to be wrong about something .

I tend to repeat myself often when I say to certain folks, it's not how you actually live your life though, and it's not a reflection of your behaviour or your actual beliefs..

Hardcore non existenter's don't behave like they don't exist . Peeps that say there is no self ego present wouldn't be on a forum arguing that point etc etc .. Non self identifiers won't identify with a female or a male and conclude that I AM going to marry them or not ..

Many concepts not lived normally fall apart at the seams pretty quickly and it becomes self evident that certain concepts are not lived for a reason .


x daz x
__________________
Everything under the sun is in tune,but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.
  #48  
Old 12-08-2020, 01:16 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I simply relate to self as a thought of oneself and this has to incorporate and reflect I AM awareness .

no self therefore would reflect no I AM awareness, so all this no self talk while running around typing on forums and such likes is incorrect . As just said on the other thread it would be as silly as a silly sausage to run around saying I AM not here .

I am cool with different perspectives and understanding what is said and implied within different contexts but at the end of the day a process of questioning and a process of elimination will determine whether or not a concept add up or not .


x daz x
Agreed, now since you brought up the moon, perhaps some day we can discuss whether it is there when we are not looking.
  #49  
Old 12-08-2020, 11:38 PM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
Hello moonglow
People having a direct experience of oneness where by they see no edges, feel no separation, from the trees, stars, people, moon or even the moonglow, will be adamant and convincing in their lived, experienced reality. In both ‘feeling’ and seeing, it becomes what it is for them.

In Zen Buddhism, they speak about it as the experience where self and no self merge and what flows from that awareness and being state is ‘the middle path’ .. So the senses, memories and knowledge no longer filter through as seperation but rather the person is living from a ‘state of oneness’ directly.

Anyone, including daz who isn’t experiencing this directly, as his/their own experience would decide through their intellectual knowing of oneness, but still with an awareness of their individuation, but without direct experience, will always wonder why others support this state of being as they do. You cannot argue or challenge direct experience, it’s exactly as it is experienced. For those in this field of reality, they become that field and the reality. Whether it’s a short time or a long time, most often as I’ve experienced with them, it’s often extreme without self concept or individuation because everything falls away and they are immersed in this direct experience of oneness.

Hello JustBe,

Thank you. For me what you share brings an important point. That is Direct Experience.

In these forms of discussion word only describe and express the person and/or the experience and its influences, IMO. Agree, if someone has not directly experienced whatever it may be, then will only remain an idea or projected image, IMO.

This holds true for me as well. Also, find it a bit of a challenge to describe experiences in which words fall short. In which the influence and integration with in the very being can not be fully described. At times, no need for me to do so and some things are just simply meant for me. Some things I know, but can not say how. Just do. Venture to say others know as well in thier own ways.

Simply put, Once seen can not unsee it and once integrated with in my mind it does not go away. May not always pay attention. That is when something comes along to nudge me to remember to notice.

I relate to Zen Buddhism, although not Buddhist myself. Find it very grounding.

I mainly enjoy the exchanges and see the wide range of outlooks. The rainbow reflected through the prism of life.( to be a bit poetic with it)
  #50  
Old 13-08-2020, 12:20 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hey Mate ..

It all depends on how one perceives themselves in reflection of everything else doesn't it . A peep that believes they are a separate peep means that this sense of oneself reflects in all things . This boils down to the relative truth and one's beliefs . Of course as always there are many levels to separation that is why fundamentally in my eyes oneness per se only relates to a fundamental level of sameness, so there cannot be any separation fundamentally regarding what we are and what all things are .





Yes, the whole aspect of individuality being false or illusory is based solely on the notion that individuality is regarded as a separate person from what they are fundamentally . This is one of the biggest flaws in non duality when non duality refers to there is only ONE . It's totally misconceived . ONE'NESS could easily be replaced with 'what you are fundamentally' and much of the misunderstandings would vanish . Its because there is misunderstanding of oneness then everything from this point gets misunderstood too .





I agree hardcore non dualists or extremists in any playing field won't really encompass flexibility in regards to be wrong about something .

I tend to repeat myself often when I say to certain folks, it's not how you actually live your life though, and it's not a reflection of your behaviour or your actual beliefs..

Hardcore non existenter's don't behave like they don't exist . Peeps that say there is no self ego present wouldn't be on a forum arguing that point etc etc .. Non self identifiers won't identify with a female or a male and conclude that I AM going to marry them or not ..

Many concepts not lived normally fall apart at the seams pretty quickly and it becomes self evident that certain concepts are not lived for a reason .


x daz x

Hey daz,

How I see myself greatly influences my perspective upon life. For me it also letting it go. If not for me or don't relate to it, just let it be.

People will bang on about a lot of things.

I don't feel it is that the self does not exist that is being pointed at by some, but that the self is temporary in its existance. What continues and is eternal is what goes on. So the analogies of "dreamlike". Atleast what comes to me at the moment in regard to this. Yeah, can say "what you are foundamentally" and you did Basically pointing at the same thing?

Yes, there are concepts and what may be just an idea to me if I have not experienced such.
There is that which I know, you may not, and you may know, I do not. Neither one right or wrong. You know what you know.

When something is expressed in words it stems from the ego. Which may be the full picture, just a pointer. Yes, there is someone there.
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