Is time real?

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

I don't know why religious and non religious people are in unification in regards to the concept that reality had a beginning when we have no examples of it and we can't observe it and yet no one seems to even hesitate to question if the concept of a beginning is even true or not.

I think for most, the beginning of reality is the Big Bang but how and why it happened is still very much speculation both scientifically and Spiritually. Much of Spirituality, regardless of the volumes of Spiritual wisdom that has been spouted in this thread, still has a linear time-based framework.

The mathematical model of time - and I'm no mathematician - is that all of time is happening all of the time and all of time affects all of time all of the time. Could our poor human noggins cope with that?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

... And if this world is an illusion then isn't our Spiritual development equally illusory?

When you say spiritual development my mind turns that into Awakening..I hope you don't mind.
Now, I must admit when we wake from sleep we can do it in increments, yeah? You know what I mean?
(Sometimes we just wake up and pop outta bed, sure.)
Waking up out of* this Illusion would not be illusory as I see it. Well, if Illusory's, definition is
'nothing we see is really real; it is not what it appears to be'...
then, it's part of the Game, or rather THE Game, the Play for God to watch,
ie, us, as we wake up and become all that we can be!

Then, I could take it another way, ha: If suffering is an illusion, happiness an illusion, my thumb an illusion,
all the stars, the air, everything manifested as matter
and the non-physical is an Illusion...a made up colossal dream, all for the entertainment of the Creator, than yes,
our sleep and our waking WOULD be illusory, by Jove!!
(Not bad for waking up in the USA about 40 min ago, no coffee!)


* diff than waking up that this is a Dream

[Miss Hepburn]

GS, Funny I would find this a few min later - post 104 in VBT Meditaions thread - by Unseeking S.


"Even if we roam within any dimension
We know it to be a maya borne illusion
For everywhere God consciousness alone shines
With this as our meditation we automatically align''

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Now, I must admit when we wake from sleep we can do it in increments, yeah? You know what I mean?

One of the problems with Spirituality is that it tends to try to exist in splendid isolation, and people tell me that Spirituality has no room for psychology. That is not the case at all and the ancients had a very good grasp on what we in the West call psychology.

We don't actually 'awake' as such, there is a 'sliding scale' where we go to sleep and our conscious almost closes down, yet we are still aware of the noisy neighbours or the alarm going off. That can only happen if we are conscious of the noise. Similarly with dreams, they come from the unconscious but if the conscious was totally shut down we wouldn't know we had any. Even when we're 'awake' the unconscious is still active and affecting us, and as you read this there are a number of unconscious processes at work 'feeding' your conscious. We are never really asleep or awake.

So yeah, increments is fine.

But is The Game to work out what is illusion or not or is the name of the game Consciousness?

Our conscious world is the dream that thinks it is the dreamer.

And actually, a 'pre-coffee' state may well be when you're at your best.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Waking up out of* this Illusion would not be illusory as I see it. Well, if Illusory's, definition is
'nothing we see is really real; it is not what it appears to be'...
then, it's part of the Game, or rather THE Game, the Play for God to watch,
ie, us, as we wake up and become all that we can be!

the problem is, the proposition 'i have left the world of illusion' is inherently unverifiable. I will never be able to tell the difference between that state and being embedded in illusion, unless I make some unsupported assumption about the meaning of things... but once I do that I'm heavily back into maya anyway so my presumption I was awake to begin with has lost its meaning. And meanwhile I've possibly become accustomed to preening at my own cleverness in the matter...

So it really isn't a topic worth considering any more... as someone said on one of these threads 'life is what it is here, now' stripped of all the pretense about past and future.

[ameliorate]

I have a problem acknowledging the everlasting now (as in eastern philosophy + leading lights like Alan Watts, Tolle, etc) with linear time (that we are all accustomed to).

Is linear time the illusion then, just a man made concept and the everlasting now the real truth?

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by ameliorate

I have a problem acknowledging the everlasting now (as in eastern philosophy + leading lights like Alan Watts, Tolle, etc) with linear time (that we are all accustomed to).

Is linear time the illusion then, just a man made concept and the everlasting now the real truth?

Thanks for rekindling this thread. Made me think of the body as a boundary, which knows predictable time, measured clock time only because it is driven to take care of itself.

The 'boundlessness' which could be another word for the everlasting now you speak of I think is experienced directly through such events as NDE or OBE, moments of grace or deep meditation. The ordinary survivalist mind is somehow transcended, placated, tricked perhaps and allows for glimpses etc of unboundedness.

However, the the very rare occasions when I have gotten a glimpse of this, have suggested that it is nothing to do with time necessarily. Time as we know it. Although there was a time I experienced an unboundedness walking down Roman Road, Bethnal Green lol. and it did feel like all the clocks stopped, why should i have described this occasion as such ??? I don't really know to be honest, there were other factors you might say besides 'Time'. There was unbounded love, bliss, freedom, expansion etc. Anyways I hope others can chip in and give you a better answer. Best regards, Joe

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[ameliorate]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

The 'boundlessness' which could be another word for the everlasting now you speak of I think is experienced directly through such events as NDE or OBE, moments of grace or deep meditation. The ordinary survivalist mind is somehow transcended, placated, tricked perhaps and allows for glimpses etc of unboundedness.

However, the the very rare occasions when I have gotten a glimpse of this, have suggested that it is nothing to do with time necessarily. Time as we know it. Although there was a time I experienced an unboundedness walking down Roman Road, Bethnal Green lol. and it did feel like all the clocks stopped, why should i have described this occasion as such ??? I don't really know to be honest, there were other factors you might say besides 'Time'. There was unbounded love, bliss, freedom, expansion etc. Anyways I hope others can chip in and give you a better answer. Best regards, Joe

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The everlasting now, in Buddhism, is said to be attained by breaking through the rational mind e.g. in meditation where the experience is beyond our mind/ego. A state of bliss? If so, I can experience this readily e.g. just by sitting in my garden, when there is peace (no noisy neighbours!)

However, I am more accustomed to this term meaning the eternal present which is maybe how I should have described it. It is the present that is dynamic/happening/alive with energy. Be here now, as Ram Dass said (in his famous book) i.e. with all your attention in the present. Hard to maintain for any length of time though (my experience).

The present feels more real than past or future time tenses. Linear time is what we know but may not be objectively true i.e. Einstein said that the past, present and future co-exist simultaneously but in different dimensions. (The experience of those having past time slips gives added credence to this) I find this totally fascinating, mysterious and complex.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by ameliorate

The present feels more real than past or future time tenses. Linear time is what we know but may not be objectively true i.e. Einstein said that the past, present and future co-exist simultaneously but in different dimensions. (The experience of those having past time slips gives added credence to this) I find this totally fascinating, mysterious and complex.

Yes I've heard you mention 'Time Slips' in one of your recent posts ? Something about a street or place in Liverpool where alot of folks experience 'Time Slips'. How goes that phenomenon of 'Time Slips' ?

I get what you are saying about the eternal present, there does seems to be different types or even levels of awareness. The epiphanic moment of awareness I had was very marked jumping from one world to the next almost.

Although all this awareness business seems a little cold to me sometimes, maybe i havent used any awareness gained through formal meditation practices to relate to suffering in general especially other peoples. Sounds heavy i know but dont they say the longest journey you can make in life is from the head to the heart ? Best Regards Joe.

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[ameliorate]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Yes I've heard you mention 'Time Slips' in one of your recent posts ? Something about a street or place in Liverpool where alot of folks experience 'Time Slips'. How goes that phenomenon of 'Time Slips' ?

I get what you are saying about the eternal present, there does seems to be different types or even levels of awareness. The epiphanic moment of awareness I had was very marked jumping from one world to the next almost.

Although all this awareness business seems a little cold to me sometimes, maybe i havent used any awareness gained through formal meditation practices to relate to suffering in general especially other peoples. Sounds heavy i know but dont they say the longest journey you can make in life is from the head to the heart ? Best Regards Joe.

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I see you are trying to equate the value of awareness with that of compassion. Although there may be an overlap (i.e. needing to be aware of an issue before developing concern/feeling for the subject) they are essentially unrelated and stand on their own - not in competition!

I mentioned the everlasting present since it is on topic, time related. However, compassion is a separate matter really (not dependent on necessarily being aware in the present moment constantly). I favour the developed heart - which is my current focus - rather than the mind so we are in agreement with this, Joe. Indeed, doing voluntary work (compassion in action) is rewarding not just for those receiving it but from the feel-good, soul nourishing factor too. You may well know this.

You ask about time slips so I assume you are unfamiliar with them. Here's a classic example of one occurring in a place renowned for them.
http://www.paranormalscholar.com/liv...n-bold-street/

and another (that first got me intrigued on this topic)
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2017/...les-time-slip/