Enlightenment, attachment and entanglement

[FallingLeaves]

i guess i sorta knew that, but for me it is very hard to disasociate from societal norms, I feel like it has gotta be a certain way or i won't be accepted... also some girl made the first move when I was very young and that turned injto a disaster.... lol...

[In Flux]

Ai! I had my share of disasters too. It's very hard for me to ignore my own norms. I'm very romantic, and that complicates my romantic life. I often feel that for people who are not so romantic, relationships are easier. I think on a surface level I don't care that much about societal norms, but probably societal norms still shaped a lot of my thinking.
You could play around with ignoring societal norms that you feel make no sense in the first place. For example, you can stop making people compliments unless it happens spontaneously, in general (there is no need to connect this to romance at all).
This kind of reminds me of a similar exercise I did for myself (that has little to do with societal norms), where I noticed I was very often exaggerating (if interested in something I would say that I was "extremely interested", or I would somehow pretend to know much more about a topic than I actually knew, etc). I think it's helpful to notice these habits and practice to change them.

[FallingLeaves]

i sorta have to be careful about how much effort I wanna put into things because another one of my issues is I never get rewarded for good behavior sigh... doesn't mean i won't do it just that I've learned to put arbitrary limits on how far I'll go in pursuit of pretty social ideas, otherwise I get dragged into all sorts of places I've come to detest just in the name of trying to fix things or get them right...

[RedEmbers]

Originally Posted by In Flux

>> The practice of non attachment will not heal certain pain and trauma.
I think it's a potential "mistake" though (sorry, I can't think of a better word) when we think of non-attachment as only a certain practice in which we deny ourselves something. For example, a more enlightened person will probably not feel very attached to material things, or to winning or losing a game,.

I am having difficulty resonating with much?!
I grew up poor and without alot of anything.

Thankfully I was always fed through friends at school. I grew up isolated and didn't know how to receive nurture. My words were for others who learned how to dissociate themselves from life because life was lacking and devoid of love and nurture. Sadly, I found myself attaching to "non attachment" as a way to cope with lack.

My own path is one of Learning how to receive love and nurture, not one of detaching from human love and nurture, first, healing and abundance from within

Buddha as I understand it, was born into royalty and had his material needs met from birth... non attachment probably made sense to him from that experience one where he was trying to find meaning within such a paradigm. It is a path which may not resonate with those who grew up lacking.
For those who have not felt love and nurture, the path is one of learning how to attach and receive in healthy ways.
Probably, my pal, Jesus might have more compassionate humanity to offer people like myself, where he can direct me towards the abundant nature of Gods loving acceptance and nurture for me, Gods child.
Plus, good old fashioned, human kindness.


That is all.

[In Flux]

Hi RedEmbers, I'm not disagreeing with any of that either. I hope things are going well for you now.

[RedEmbers]

That's fine :-)
I really only understand acceptance.

I only understand non attachment to outcomes

As in, fostering things from within and then not having attachments to what manifests externally, but then, perhaps I simply need to accept that I currently do not need to understand the concept of non attachment.
As I am learning, so within, so with-out.
What I feel and nurture within me, reflects outwardly, so is the way I have received loving miracles.
Peace.

[saurab]

Originally Posted by In Flux

I think it's so tricky to deal with attachment.

Intelligence is the antidote to attachment and nothing else. That intelligence can be accessed via an insight into the nature of loneliness, or it can be accessed through painful experiences of life. We should not escape from loneliness but completely face it. The result may be that you may fall in love with a beautiful tree or a pet dog next door or just nature. So, true love is another antidote to attachment.

[In Flux]

Originally Posted by saurab

We should not escape from loneliness but completely face it.

That's an advice that you hear often, and I think there is a lot of truth in it. But what I've missed in this advice (the various times that I've heard it), is that it makes a difference how you face it. In the podcast of Joe Rogan with Jewel (which I highly recommend) she explained how she developed her own approach to deal with depression and difficult emotions, based on noticing her mental state as one of contraction or expansion, and based on an awareness that everything comes and goes. This gave her a better place to be in when facing loneliness and other difficult things. I think it's quite essential to have some supportive (mental) place when facing loneliness, otherwise, it's a brute force aproach that maybe still works, but maybe becomes too much to handle (that's just my take on it).

[Starman]

Okay, I got long winded here: Some people are love starved and they may come across as desperate, so attachment is one thing and enmeshment is another. In enmeshment you can feel that other person inside of you and it is more then just a surface attachment.

Losing someone you are attached to can drive a person crazy and make them very unstable. Let us substitute the word attachment for the word addiction. They have similar characteristics. Human beings often use other human beings like a drug.

What is a “booty call,” in my opinion it is nothing more then a person seeking a sexual fix, or otherwise an emotional fix. There is no right or wrong in this, but we have to be careful who and what we open ourselves to.

There is an electrical chemical reaction when we get close to someone, physically or emotionally. Withdrawal from that electrical chemical reaction, depending upon how deep and how long we have had that intimacy, can be an emotional struggle.

You invest in a person and the investment may not reach planned goals. I see the problem as ownership in relationships. My girlfriend or wife, etc. Kahlil Gibran, a noted Sufi poet, says about children, that you do not own your children. Who owns you? How can we say another person belongs to me? I did not own my mother and I left home at the age of seven-teen to gain my freedom.

Expectations come with an ownership declaration, too often unrealistic expectations. People get together for all sorts of reasons and then break up because those reasons were not fulfilled. Lots of times there is a lack of communication about the investment. A relationship is a dynamic living thing that can constantly change.

Lots of people do not want to work on relationships, they are looking for the easy button. People generally want low maintenance relationships. Some don’t know what they want. Regardless, every relationship which we have, for better or worst, contributes to our lives.

Relationships are very good learning milieus, nonetheless, most of the dark nights of the soul which I have had was due to a relationship. But we can not learn how to have relationships by avoiding them.

Peace and Good Journey

[Redchic12]

You stated: Expectations come with an ownership……….

I feel much suffering is caused thru people expecting something back from people in general and not only in relationships. If you do NoT expect anything from others, your life is so much happier; hence less suffering.

You also state: “noted Sufi poet, says about children, that you do not own your children. Who owns you? How can we say another person belongs to me? I did not own my mother and I left home at the age of seven-teen to gain my freedom. “
Totally agree! For many years now I’ve told my kids that they owe me nothing. I had them cos I wanted to and if they do anything for me it’s because they want to and not because they feel they have to. I believe your kids come thru you but you don’t own them.

I’ve more or less felt the same in relationships as well. But the trouble was most guys didn’t get it! So of course it didn’t work out. Maybe I just chose the wrong ones ha ha. So ya just gotta laugh and move on ha ha

You state: “Lots of people do not want to work on relationships, they are looking for the easy button. People generally want low maintenance relationships.

Yes I think in todays society perhaps it is a case of not trying to work things out but not the case for everybody of course. I know for myself I did 20 years in mine but it needed to finish for both our sakes if we were going to grow.

However, I can’t see anything wrong in wanting a low maintenance relationship tho. But I’m thinking in terms of “needy” and demanding. Unsure how you are viewing it. I’ve been in a high maintenance relationship and it is too exhausting. Give me a low one any day!