What if the mind is conscious, an extension of consciousness?

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

It is more truthful and straight to the point to say that the conditioned mind and it's contents, including false beliefs about the self and Self/Atman are not the Self/Atman.

self is a made and conjured up concept or thing.

Is self a made up thing? This implies something completely imaginary.

Yes, from the perspective of the Self, self is a temporary construct which has no lasting reality, but for most people self is a very real identification.

And are you speaking as someone resting in the Self/Atman who knows these things to be true, or are you speaking as someone still identified with the self who has a set of philosophical beliefs?

Peace

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Is self a made up thing? This implies something completely imaginary.

Yes, from the perspective of the Self, self is a temporary construct which has no lasting reality, but for most people self is a very real identification.

And are you speaking as someone resting in the Self/Atman who knows these things to be true, or are you speaking as someone still identified with the self who has a set of philosophical beliefs?

Peace

Yep, self is a false misleading concept or idea that is all in your mind.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yep, self is a false misleading concept or idea that is all in your mind.

And are you free of this false misleading concept or idea that it is all in your mind, or are you still bound in identification with this self?

In other words, do you know the reality beyond the mind? Or are you just using the mind to come up with mental concepts?

Peace

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by iamthat

And are you free of this false misleading concept or idea that it is all in your mind, or are you still bound in identification with this self?

In other words, do you know the reality beyond the mind? Or are you just using the mind to come up with mental concepts?

Peace

No, I am not bound in identification with the self, because, as I said, the self is a man made false concept and belief of separation. You are only playing mind games with yourself. Beyond the mind is a mental concept of beyond the mind. There is nothing beyond the mind, except when the mind ceases to exist/function, which is death.

Do you know what happens when or after you die? No you don't because you are not dead. Saying you do know what happens when or after you die is wishful imaginative thinking because you are not dead, you are here.

Originally Posted by lemex

Many people feel they could be or act differently in the physical world and in a sense feel they do not act as soul would. Many say one thing and do another and say they don't know why. We look for our true being and talk about our spiritual true nature as real. Everything we do here is based being human, biochemical interaction happening within the body which drive the body which in the spirit will not exist. Iow soul will be (and therefore is) entirely different. It is artificial in the sense if there is our true nature as we talk about. As one is not the body consciousness is not the body. Think of it as our conflicts we are all aware of and that experience.

How does a Soul act? Does anyone really know and if those many people know so much anout how as Soul acts, wheredid they obtain that information from? Is there is such a thing as Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations didn't we already choose this Life when we were in Spirit as part of our Soul's development?

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I use atman and brahman interchangingly because underneath it all, brahman is atman and vice versa, however it does help alot to differentiate but not separate the 2 to go deeper under the surface.

As close as I can tell without arguing over semantics, Brahman is the Soul/Spirit/God. According to the Britannica it's the infinite, omnipresent..... Since Jung was a scholar was eastern religion/philosophy and one of the fathers of modern-day psychology I'll look to him for the rest of it. The Atman is the equivalent to the self, which includes (and no, not only as you've said) the ego and its 'contents', and the unconscious and its 'contents'. Jung also described the self as the God inside. While the Brahman and the Atman are different, they are aspects of the same Being and have a symbiotic relationship.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yup! Without ego/the sense of self/I am, atman/we will be mindless, meaning not have individuality, personality etc etc, hell, we might not even be conscious at all, so what's the point of talking smack about the ego/mind lol? There is no point.

Another way to look at the ego/mind is that the ego/mind is there to evolve the human race as a whole, not just one individual human at a time.

I think Contents of the mind and aspects/extensions of atman/brahman belong together for one to put the whole picture together. And separating the two can be misleading and cause confusion. The contents of most peoples minds, as you are aware, do not line up with their atman, thus are not aspects/extensions of atman/brahman, examples include hate, fear, negativity etc etc.

People's imagination is what causes/creates things that are not aspects/extensions of atman/brahman, and the imagination is what reverses atman's nature, the imagination is what turns atman's nature of love into hate/fear.

Yup, All the aspects/extensions of atman when all put together makes atman whole, and atman as a whole is what matters, not parts, aspects or extensions of atman thrown in here and there.

Yes, you are not your thoughts, you are atman however, if your thoughts do line up with your atman, then you are your thoughts because your thoughts are atman, people/gurus/teachers do not tell you the last part for some reason.

In true/clinical ego-death the ego and its 'contents' collapses into the self, it's usually caused by very severe emotional trauma. It can leave the person dysfunctional for a time - think of someone very broken-hearted. What the people rattling on about being ego-less don't tell you is that the Spiritual masters who have achieved this are spoon-fed and have their daipers changed because they have no sense of self.

There is nothing that is not 'generated' by or an aspect of Atman, at its root fear is created by the imagination 'filling in the blanks' and therefore based on ignorance and even that is a 'product' of Atman. Hate, fear, negativity etc... are all created in the same space as love, fearlessness, postivity etc... by cognitive processes (also aspects of Atman) and as few other aspects of Atman, roughly what is known is Sanskrit as Chitta or 'lower mind' - part of which includes the unconscious. Your thoughts are created via a number of aspects but the main 'driver' is cognitive behaviour. It's your cognitive behaviour that decides whether you fear or not, whether you are positive or negative..... It's not a question of whether they are in-line with the Atman or not because they are a 'product' of the Atman. This is something that's not really understood sometimes, because every post in this forum - and what happens outside the forums - is the expression of Atman.

All of those things are aspects of Atman and both what we hold inside and what we express outwards are 'products' of the/our Atman and its various aspects/components. So really, is there anything that is not Atman or if there is, is it that we don't take ownership of what we don't like of ourselves very much? So no, it doesn't make sense to focus on the more desirable aspects of ourselves to the ignorance of others, because those undesirable aspects still play their parts in the whole being/self just the same.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

As close as I can tell without arguing over semantics, Brahman is the Soul/Spirit/God. According to the Britannica it's the infinite, omnipresent..... Since Jung was a scholar was eastern religion/philosophy and one of the fathers of modern-day psychology I'll look to him for the rest of it. The Atman is the equivalent to the self, which includes (and no, not only as you've said) the ego and its 'contents', and the unconscious and its 'contents'. Jung also described the self as the God inside. While the Brahman and the Atman are different, they are aspects of the same Being and have a symbiotic relationship.

In true/clinical ego-death the ego and its 'contents' collapses into the self, it's usually caused by very severe emotional trauma. It can leave the person dysfunctional for a time - think of someone very broken-hearted. What the people rattling on about being ego-less don't tell you is that the Spiritual masters who have achieved this are spoon-fed and have their daipers changed because they have no sense of self.

Yes, Brahman is god and so is atman/self god. Atman/self or Self is the individual physical form of brahman.

Brahman/god (including all the gods people worship in all religions and spirituality) is nothing more or less than the eternal and infinite right here and right now. Thus I do not think brahman/the eternal and infinite right here and right now is soul/spirit (soul and spirit implies form/boundaries and the infinite does not have form/boundaries, the infinite is formless and boundless, even consciousness implies form/boundaries) . However, I do think brahman creates individual souls/spirits or energy to animate/create our individual bodies, selfs and life. These souls/spirits/energy is atman. Atman includes mind, body, soul/spirit, consciousness etc etc

Originally Posted by Greenslade

There is nothing that is not 'generated' by or an aspect of Atman, at its root fear is created by the imagination 'filling in the blanks' and therefore based on ignorance and even that is a 'product' of Atman. Hate, fear, negativity etc... are all created in the same space as love, fearlessness, postivity etc... by cognitive processes (also aspects of Atman) and as few other aspects of Atman, roughly what is known is Sanskrit as Chitta or 'lower mind' - part of which includes the unconscious. Your thoughts are created via a number of aspects but the main 'driver' is cognitive behaviour. It's your cognitive behaviour that decides whether you fear or not, whether you are positive or negative..... It's not a question of whether they are in-line with the Atman or not because they are a 'product' of the Atman. This is something that's not really understood sometimes, because every post in this forum - and what happens outside the forums - is the expression of Atman.

All of those things are aspects of Atman and both what we hold inside and what we express outwards are 'products' of the/our Atman and its various aspects/components. So really, is there anything that is not Atman or if there is, is it that we don't take ownership of what we don't like of ourselves very much? So no, it doesn't make sense to focus on the more desirable aspects of ourselves to the ignorance of others, because those undesirable aspects still play their parts in the whole being/self just the same.

You are right that there is nothing that is not 'generated' by or an aspect of Atman, and I do not have a problem with that.

Atman's true unconditioned nature is love, fearlessness, positivity etc however, the mind (conscious and unconscious) part of atman is subject to conditioning and manipulation, this could just be a side effect of memory and of the physical brain evolving throughout the years.

Yes, The imagination is what creates fear and hate and the imagination is what takes one away from and escapes the eternal and infinite right here and right now. It is alot easier for one to be in ones imagination than for one to be conscious of one's errors/mistakes (which includes one's conditioning) and of the eternal and infinite right here and right now kicking one's a s s (by the eternal and infinite right here and right now triggering ones conditioning) because of it. I have been there and done that!

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes, Brahman is god and so is atman/self god. Atman/self or Self is the individual physical form of brahman.

Brahman/god (including all the gods people worship in all religions and spirituality) is nothing more or less than the eternal and infinite right here and right now. Thus I do not think brahman/the eternal and infinite right here and right now is soul/spirit (soul and spirit implies form/boundaries and the infinite does not have form/boundaries, the infinite is formless and boundless, even consciousness implies form/boundaries) . However, I do think brahman creates individual souls/spirits or energy to animate/create our individual bodies, selfs and life. These souls/spirits/energy is atman. Atman includes mind, body, soul/spirit, consciousness etc etc

No arguments here. The question I have is what about self/Atman? I am conscious of my conscious/ego, I am conscious that I have an unconscious and am also conscious of its frameworks. My question is, what is self's/Atman's relationship with the unconscious?

The root word for the Sanskrit Deva/Devi is 'dev/div', the direct translation of which is 'Shining One'. That comes from the Sumerian word 'Elohim' and 'El' is alos the root word for 'angel' and the angelic names - Garbi-el, Micha-el etc.... In Ireland they were the Tautha de Danaan or the 'children of Diana, and in South America they were the Viracochas or 'Shining Ones'. For the most part the pre-Zoroaster gods were actual beings and other than that the gods are mostly personifications. And rumour has it that the Abrahamic God has its roots in politics, while another rumour has God's root in cavemen eating magic mushrooms. I just find these things curious.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

You are right that there is nothing that is not 'generated' by or an aspect of Atman, and I do not have a problem with that.

Atman's true unconditioned nature is love, fearlessness, positivity etc however, the mind (conscious and unconscious) part of atman is subject to conditioning and manipulation, this could just be a side effect of memory and of the physical brain evolving throughout the years.

Yes, The imagination is what creates fear and hate and the imagination is what takes one away from and escapes the eternal and infinite right here and right now. It is alot easier for one to be in ones imagination than for one to be conscious of one's errors/mistakes (which includes one's conditioning) and of the eternal and infinite right here and right now kicking one's a s s (by the eternal and infinite right here and right now triggering ones conditioning) because of it. I have been there and done that!

Personally I find it interesting when people seem to perceive things as not being 'generated' by Atman, especially when they talk of themselves as being 'awake' and 'aware'.

People's conditioning isn't really conditioning, it's a response to external stimuli essentially and is part what happens and part cognition, with a dab of self-peerception/ego thrown in. The ego is like a committee of sorts some unconscious frameworks thrown in for good measure, and any perceptions of experience is relative to that ego in whatever shape or form that takes. And sometimes that goes all the way back to childhood no matter how old you are. The conditioning goes deeper than most berlieve it does.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

No arguments here. The question I have is what about self/Atman? I am conscious of my conscious/ego, I am conscious that I have an unconscious and am also conscious of its frameworks. My question is, what is self's/Atman's relationship with the unconscious?

The root word for the Sanskrit Deva/Devi is 'dev/div', the direct translation of which is 'Shining One'. That comes from the Sumerian word 'Elohim' and 'El' is alos the root word for 'angel' and the angelic names - Garbi-el, Micha-el etc.... In Ireland they were the Tautha de Danaan or the 'children of Diana, and in South America they were the Viracochas or 'Shining Ones'. For the most part the pre-Zoroaster gods were actual beings and other than that the gods are mostly personifications. And rumour has it that the Abrahamic God has its roots in politics, while another rumour has God's root in cavemen eating magic mushrooms. I just find these things curious.

Personally I find it interesting when people seem to perceive things as not being 'generated' by Atman, especially when they talk of themselves as being 'awake' and 'aware'.

People's conditioning isn't really conditioning, it's a response to external stimuli essentially and is part what happens and part cognition, with a dab of self-peerception/ego thrown in. The ego is like a committee of sorts some unconscious frameworks thrown in for good measure, and any perceptions of experience is relative to that ego in whatever shape or form that takes. And sometimes that goes all the way back to childhood no matter how old you are. The conditioning goes deeper than most berlieve it does.

Yes, the positive, negative and good and bad, likes and dislikes are all the same because it all comes from and relates to the atman/self/Self that is within everyone.

One's conditioning is a response to one's external stimuli, the cause of said response to one's external stimuli is one's personal false perception of one's external stimuli, one's external stimuli includes others selves (thus includes myself), the universe, ego, mind etc ( all these things are (synonymous with) the eternal and infinite right here and right now). All this relates to atman and since brahman is atman and vice versa, all this relates to brahman/god as well.

The way one negatively perceives and thinks about one's external stimuli/the self/others selves, the universe, ego, mind, thus the eternal and infinite right here and right now is the conditioning and is mostly based on fear. One's personal perception of one's external stimuli is based on one's memory and fear of negative experiences one had in the past, which causes one to have negative beliefs/conditioning/programming about one's external stimuli/the universe, self, ego, the right here and right now etc and this is what attracts people who have a negative mindset/negative beliefs/conditioning about their external stimuli/the universe/self/ego to religion and spirituality, and to the claims and promises some religions and spirituality make.

One's personal negative fear based perception and beliefs of one's external stimuli/the universe/self/ego, which are all part of the eternal and infinite right here and right now is what I mean by conditioning and is the mistake and error one makes, this is true karma that the right here and right now triggers, and has nothing to do with one doing good deeds as most people think.

If one was to undo one's false negative fear based conditioning, which causes one to have false beliefs about one's external stimuli/the self/others selves, the universe, ego, mind etc, thus the eternal and infinite right here and right now and view/perceive one's external stimuli/the self/others selves, the universe, ego, mind etc, thus the eternal and infinite right here and right now in a negative/bad way, one will never do something bad or negative and ideas/concepts and spiritual paths and traditions like karma and doing good deeds will not at all be necessary.

Sure, the fear one is conditioned/programmed with may not be one's fault, however, it is one's mind, so it is one's responsibility to be honest with one's self and to take full responsibility for the fear based conditioning, beliefs, and contents that one fills up one's mind with.

I am not at all saying fear is a bad thing. Fear is there to help us learn, evolve and to wake us up. The problem most people have with fear is that fear causes people to be more fearful and/or people use thier imaginations to ignore, dismiss and escape thier internal fear/false conditioning, beliefs etc.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes, the positive, negative and good and bad, likes and dislikes are all the same because it all comes from and relates to the atman/self/Self that is within everyone.

One's conditioning is a response to one's external stimuli, the cause of said response to one's external stimuli is one's personal false perception of one's external stimuli, one's external stimuli includes others selves (thus includes myself), the universe, ego, mind etc ( all these things are (synonymous with) the eternal and infinite right here and right now). All this relates to atman and since brahman is atman and vice versa, all this relates to brahman/god as well.

I'll agree with that.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The way one negatively perceives and thinks about one's external stimuli/the self/others selves, the universe, ego, mind, thus the eternal and infinite right here and right now is the conditioning and is mostly based on fear. One's personal perception of one's external stimuli is based on one's memory and fear of negative experiences one had in the past, which causes one to have negative beliefs/conditioning/programming about one's external stimuli/the universe, self, ego, the right here and right now etc and this is what attracts people who have a negative mindset/negative beliefs/conditioning about their external stimuli/the universe/self/ego to religion and spirituality, and to the claims and promises some religions and spirituality make.

One's personal negative fear based perception and beliefs of one's external stimuli/the universe/self/ego, which are all part of the eternal and infinite right here and right now is what I mean by conditioning and is the mistake and error one makes, this is true karma that the right here and right now triggers, and has nothing to do with one doing good deeds as most people think.

'Negative' is judgement of the process you're describing and not fact, and in many cases it can be dissociative. Once you understand that you begin to move away from that 'automatic' process. If it is Atman/Brahman then can that be negative?

Conditioning is not based on fear, fear is the imagination 'filling in the blanks' of the mind when there is not enough information. Part of the 'conditioning' is the Limbic System, which is often falsely referred to as the 'lizard brain'. It's the first line of defence and its main function is survival, it makes us gravitate towards what is conducive our survival and move away from what is not. There are also a number of unconscious 'subsytems' also at play that have more sway than the conscious mind.

Karma has become little more than victim/reward mentality as far as the chatter in these forums shows. In the orginal Sanskrit karma meant 'action', but later on it came to mean 'cause and effect'. If you're going down this road then the understanding is in kamma-vipaka, or 'the results of intention' - also known as the ethical component of karma. Intention creates action which then has a reaction, and the 'results'/vipaka are not just in the physical reaction but in the emotional outcomes as a result of both our actions and the 'results'/vipaka. Kamma-vipaka is one of the stimuli that is in a 'feedback loop' with the ego and is part of what you call programming.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

If one was to undo one's false negative fear based conditioning, which causes one to have false beliefs about one's external stimuli/the self/others selves, the universe, ego, mind etc, thus the eternal and infinite right here and right now and view/perceive one's external stimuli/the self/others selves, the universe, ego, mind etc, thus the eternal and infinite right here and right now in a negative/bad way, one will never do something bad or negative and ideas/concepts and spiritual paths and traditions like karma and doing good deeds will not at all be necessary.

I went through two rounds of cognitive behaviour therapy which took my framewrok apart peiece by piece and put it under a microscope - all the way back to childhood. What you are calling 'conditioning' isn't, 'technically' it's cognitive behaviour and the ancients would have called positive cognitive behaviour 'Right Thinking'. Thinking that things are either positive or negative is symptom of cognitive behaviour, and even more so in the context of Spirituality where "We are here to learn the lessons" or phrases of that ilk, if you beleive in such. Negative/destructive cognitive behaviour -especially within Spirituality and the context of the source being Brahman/Atamn - is thinking that anything is 'negative'. When you learn and gain from it it's no longer 'negative and you asre no longer the victim, you begin to deal with your experiences, thought processes and 'conditioning' in a far more constructive manner. Jung would say that this is making the unconscious conscious.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Sure, the fear one is conditioned/programmed with may not be one's fault, however, it is one's mind, so it is one's responsibility to be honest with one's self and to take full responsibility for the fear based conditioning, beliefs, and contents that one fills up one's mind with.

I am not at all saying fear is a bad thing. Fear is there to help us learn, evolve and to wake us up. The problem most people have with fear is that fear causes people to be more fearful and/or people use thier imaginations to ignore, dismiss and escape thier internal fear/false conditioning, beliefs etc.

It's not just one's mind that's responsible for it because there are unconscious systems that have more sdway ovce how one thinks than one thinks, it's not until you travel dee3per into your unconscious that you begin to become conscious of so much more.

Fear is a basic survival technique that has kept us alive since we were little more than prey animals for lions and tigers and bears, oh my. It's also a Frankenstein's monster of our own creation. It's never about what we have but what we do with it, and if we don't deal with not the fear itself but the frameworks that created it, those monsters are shoved into the Shadow Self and their rattling of their cages are ecxhoed and reflected in what we express and how we express it - Spiritually included. Again, making the unconscious conscious.