What is non duality?

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

Exactly thats my point is that we are going to have different experiences from one another and so 2 two people cannot have the same identical experience ergo there is no grounded consistent thing called "real reality" in which to anchor the statement that "this life is Maya and there's a real reality beyond this"

"Real reality" is one which is beyond words . Trying to lock in limited words , rules and axioms is almost next to impossible. With Grace of God we can however glimpses in parts of it (like all sciences do it ) .

Forget about spirituality for a moment . You live the life this way also in life on day to day basis for many experiences like taste , aroma , beauty , melody ,sensations etc . All these mundane experiences are beyond description and every person may have different words to describe the same thing . At best there is some ranking based on jury opinion which too can be disputed / commented by any laymen . The reason is all these are experiences and experiences can best be experienced without bothering to standardize/limit them in words.

In same way spirituality also is real experience and we dont bother too much to standardize on it.

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

It makes such a statement just a concept it has no authority behind it because there's no anchor point because the anchor point does not exist which therefore the belief that we need to transcend Maya and see the real world would actually be the real illusion because there is no real world in the sense of illusion-free

Anchor is the faith & hope that reality still works in some predictable manner considering the way it has worked in the past and world over.So recommendation to discern wider reality also in the Maya and maintain reasonable balance in life.

Originally Posted by God-Like

For some reason dreamers of the waking world don't have a like for like comparison.

That satisfies you...


I have a comparison of knowing physical reality is all there is and "knowing" physical reality is a transient appearance of and within Me. It satisfies me and I'd wager it satisfies anyone who has had such a "knowing".

I can also relate it to the comparison between a mundane and lucid dream and beyond that I can compare all four of those states of mind to the deepest meditative state I can attain and that's where space and time drop out. Pretty much the same as deep and dreamless sleep.

The problem here is non-duality cannot be expressed and because of that cannot be directly shared. It can only be pointed at.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

J. krishnamurti and chogyam trungpa have a talk about meditation:
https://youtu.be/1SjnCFi8lhA

I assume he's speaking to choiceless awareness. What's confusing is he goes on a rant dismissing meditation practice. It has the feel of neo-Advaita because while I agree choiceless awareness is a lofty and worthy goal one is not going to attain that mind state without practice. Lots and lots of practice.

Reading and/or listening to any teacher, including J. Krishnamurti, isn't going to cut the mustard. That would require Grace of a Divine Avatar.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey Mikey Mike, what you say I agree with and in these instances we need to understand the relevance of where I am sits within all of this otherwise we can potentially have a shadow pointing to a shadow and saying I am real and you are not ..

We have to get the foundations right to begin with and this is why the dream analogy never works when there is supposedly meant to be someone awake to it all ..

The sages and the devoted teachers that get linked time and time again to somehow prove what is said only bolsters up the foundation of these dudes are equally unreal and dreamy and illusory ..

All one has to do is understand the self, the foundation of self which reflects in all things.

Once one goes down the illusory dream route then that is there self foundation and one cannot wriggle out of it even though they try.

One needs a truthful foundation to begin with and then everything reflects that. Within that energy everything makes sense . Everything can be explained through that energy .



x daz x

Yuppers, just to clarify: "the me" is not the Self/self or the feeling sense of I AM. "the me" judges, compares, evaluates and etc in relation or in projection to the Self/self or the feeling sense of I AM.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

"Real reality" is one which is beyond words . Trying to lock in limited words , rules and axioms is almost next to impossible. With Grace of God we can however glimpses in parts of it (like all sciences do it ) .

Forget about spirituality for a moment . You live the life this way also in life on day to day basis for many experiences like taste , aroma , beauty , melody ,sensations etc . All these mundane experiences are beyond description and every person may have different words to describe the same thing . At best there is some ranking based on jury opinion which too can be disputed / commented by any laymen . The reason is all these are experiences and experiences can best be experienced without bothering to standardize/limit them in words.

In same way spirituality also is real experience and we dont bother too much to standardize on it.



Anchor is the faith & hope that reality still works in some predictable manner considering the way it has worked in the past and world over.So recommendation to discern wider reality also in the Maya and maintain reasonable balance in life.

first of all thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me i appreciate it and i dont want you to take anything that I say is combative or argumentative or as if I'm trying to win you over to my side or anything like that as I apparently tend to come across aggressively to people which is not my intentions.

now i understand what you're saying and I agree with you in fact I often times touch on the limitations of language and how languages merely a portion of our existence so how can a portion completely in engulf the whole of which it is a tiny portion of (it's impossible)

but I'm not talking about the ability to communicate to the experience I'm talking about the experience itself and how the experience itself is never the same from person to person and communicating it to the next person is a totally different subject and I'm not worried about that and I feel as if me and you are on the same page as far as communication of the experience is concerned but I'm talking about the experience itself not existing as we call "real reality"

i think we automatically assume it's existence (the real reality) for convenience sake because it seems practical and logical which is fine no harm done except for when the claim that a person is experiencing Maya in the negative sense that they are in illusion and need to transcend said illusion and return to this solid state reality that we automatically assume exists might just in fact not exist and be the actual illusion and that the real reality is that there is no real reality only individual personal realities and holding the concept of a real reality that we could all identically share is the illusion

kind of like a conceptual double switcheroo

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

but I'm not talking about the ability to communicate to the experience I'm talking about the experience itself and how the experience itself is never the same from person to person

There is something (actually "no thing") exactly the same, always and unchanging. It's the "space" of and within which all experience arises, lingers and subsides.

For anyone who has had an experience of Oneness, Unity, Cosmic Consciousness, etc... try this on for size. It's not like you were a mind-body moving within that "space" but you were that "Space" and everything, including mind-body, was of and moving within You.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I assume he's speaking to choiceless awareness. What's confusing is he goes on a rant dismissing meditation practice. It has the feel of neo-Advaita because while I agree choiceless awareness is a lofty and worthy goal one is not going to attain that mind state without practice. Lots and lots of practice.

Reading and/or listening to any teacher, including J. Krishnamurti, isn't going to cut the mustard. That would require Grace of a Divine Avatar.

Nothing J Krishnamurti said in the video is confusing at all.

Your comment about him ranting and some of the other comments of the video in the comments section of the video shows that he is right that judging and evaluating does create disorder. What did Krishnamurti say about practice in the video? Practicing strengthens or emphasizes "the me" (aka the ego). Practicing is "the me" or ego doing-doing means judging and evaluating etc etc , "the me" or ego is the one that practices, while choiceless awareness or mindfulness or whatever you want to call it is non-doing.

Trying to negating "the me" aka ego through "the me" or ego practicing, judging and evaluating is impossible and is a contradiction and create conflict.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

...combative or argumentative ....

Sure. I understand people coming from different perspectives may not at see things same on many aspects . I am also ok for that and its all fine so long discussion remains healthy and goodwill is retained. Even I come aggressive many times. But that more topical rather than personal . And I know topics are very tiny portion of entire personalities which most of the times are far better .

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

...for when the claim that a person is experiencing Maya in the negative sense that they are in illusion and need to transcend said illusion and return to this solid state reality that we automatically assume exists might just in fact not exist

True many a times people are delusional or feigning experiences . In either case they need to open their own eyes . Others need to be beware of any damage it can happen to them/others. Delusional experiences damage oneself only in the form of accompanying laziness , superstitions , over optimism/pessimism, intolerance etc

So long as seeker is not feigning experiences to deceive others or get an undue advantage over others to the detriment of others , it is all ok . It can be considered work-in-progress , seeker on path progressing at his/her own speed damaging none.

Now many times people get bored / tired of same topic discussion . I can understand that . However if u see the promise of spirituality rightly practiced , its tremendous. It is metaphysics in Greek . It enables one to see within ,discern beyond , look behind , feel inside what's really intrinsic / essential to the phenomenon. This helps people at all stages of life in all circumstances. This is long drawn affair , tough and lone journey most of the times . So if people find some right guidance, they get good relief and direction. So for the benefit of many , people may need to tolerate these non-harmful discussions.

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

and that the real reality is that there is no real reality only individual personal realities and holding the concept of a real reality that we could all identically share is the illusion

Diversity and variety of personal realities is the only "real reality" and we need to accept and appreciate other's personal realities while still trying to perfect our own reality so far in accordance with known laws of nature ( ie sciences) .

So we respect here the personal reality of everyone including yours .

Hope this has not turned out long post..

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I have a comparison of knowing physical reality is all there is and "knowing" physical reality is a transient appearance of and within Me. It satisfies me and I'd wager it satisfies anyone who has had such a "knowing".

The problem here is non-duality cannot be expressed and because of that cannot be directly shared. It can only be pointed at.

If you're using non duality as something that cannot be expressed then you can't use it as a comparison for what is not a dream .

There is nothing permanent that you can use as a comparison to the impermanence of what is a dream .

You see this is the issue at play here, all you and others are doing is pointing to something and that something that cannot be experienced, expressed or lived by you or anyone else is then used as a knowing of what is not a dream or is real or permanent .

It's not that I don't understand beyondness in relation to Self realisation or whatever word suits it's because I do that I understand the implications or what peeps like you say about this world and the nature of it .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yuppers, just to clarify: "the me" is not the Self/self or the feeling sense of I AM. "the me" judges, compares, evaluates and etc in relation or in projection to the Self/self or the feeling sense of I AM.

Well yes, the 'me' that knows, realises, judges that the world is a dream is not the sense of I AM that isn't aware of the world as this or that .

The sense of I AM or simply awareness of I AM that is only aware of oneself for use of a better word and is prior to perceiving the world has no idea of what a dream is or isn't, what self is or refers too .

Peeps seem to be confused somewhat and can't tell the difference .

This is what I am trying to point out in regards to beyond self and beyond mind in such a way where one can't use that as a comparison because there is no thought of what is permanent and what isn't, what self is or what self isn't .

What I do hear is the supposed beyond selfness to the self that knows what the world is based upon no one being present to know what any of it refers too or means .

It's the biggest stumbling block that completely goes overlooked and for some reason ignored or misunderstood time and time again .


x daz x