What are you meditating for?

[skygazer]

wow, it's been quite a trip following this thread. I don't find these ideas translate well into words. You all make valid points.

Don't we all deal with a degree of inner conflict brought on by the concepts we contemplate?

I am not a fan of the kind of thought process that postulates "there is no spoon"...I understand the basis for the argument, but it hurts my head too much, plus, being human at this moment, requires me to interact with the "spoon", and so I'd rather take the convenient stand point...but this is just me.

Tao

I have of course noticed this is myself. Instinctive, peaceful nothingness energy that comes from meditation, and 2 types of stress. One we learn after we're born, and one instinctive such as fear of an approaching hungry lion.

The former energy is by far the more pleasant and helps keeps the body and emotions healthy....The other causes damaging hormones to circulate and gets us ready to fight or run.

I also agree that as a whole, humanity has an imbalance in the two energies caused by media, peers and other things we learn. Science has conditioned us. School too.

I am OK with conditioning...it is a necessary evil... Without the ability for the mind to become conditioned, you would never have learned to go to the shops and trade money for food. Or ask for directions.
Taoism seems to emphasize removal of the negative energies,
I say people should learn to accept negativity.

If we stop trying to strip this conditioning away...it finds its natural place. Then it only arises when the current situation requires it.

Reading back over the last sentence, I can see a person might mistakenly think that I'm giving a technique to put conditioning in it's natural place. This is one of my contradictions that Vince was speaking of.

I think that meditation is impossible. If you even attempt it AT ALL, then you're doing it wrong.

Spot on Skygazer!

You got it

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Argento

Thanks for the encouragement vince...All that inner work has obviously made you exceedingly kind.

You sure invalidated my claims, I do indeed contradict myself.
I admit that I might be wrong, because I truly don't know the answer.

You might be wrong too

I'm impressed by your ability to accept criticism without expressing aversion. This is a sign of a degree of detachment from identification with one's ideas and sense of self. Most people would be quick to jump to their defenses. Good job!

You are right, I might be wrong too. The limitations and enigmatic nature of the human mind prevent us from knowing anything in an absolute sense. Although I do believe there can be a high degree of truth attainable when using the parameters of language and particular conceptual frameworks, as in this case.

[earth&moonchild]

Dear Argento,
To be able to meditate, you have to believe that you are pure consciousness. That you are a divine being that simply started as a spirit. Esoteric science is one consisting of vibrational harmonics and frequency ranges. It teaches that a dynamic energy (the fifth element, or spirit) runs through out the cosmos on different planes, spreading through all things. When you meditate, you have to have this belief. You have to believe that the crystal or stone that you are holding while you meditate is sending vibrations through the cosmic energy field and through you. You have to believe that your words or affirmations are sending vibrations through the cosmic energy field and through you, and you have to believe that your words will serve your purpose. You have to have good intent. Cleanse a space for an altar and place five stones to represent the elements. Thank the elements before beginning meditation. Light some sage. You are a part of the cosmic energy field because you are a spirit with a body. To have complete balance, you must study Esoteric science and use it in practice. Meditation is one of the practices that fits into Esoteric science. If you do not believe in Esoteric Science, then I can understand why meditation does nothing for you. You cannot half-do something. Your interested in meditation? Why don't you explore and look into it. Esoteric science is no less valid than orthodox science.

[earth&moonchild]

Go watch Spirit Science on Youtube if you are interested in expanding your knowledge of Esoteric Science. It is interesting and helps you understand that everything is connected and it gives you a detailed description of how.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by earth&moonchild

Dear Argento,
To be able to meditate, you have to believe that you are pure consciousness. That you are a divine being that simply started as a spirit. Esoteric science is one consisting of vibrational harmonics and frequency ranges. It teaches that a dynamic energy (the fifth element, or spirit) runs through out the cosmos on different planes, spreading through all things. When you meditate, you have to have this belief. You have to believe that the crystal or stone that you are holding while you meditate is sending vibrations through the cosmic energy field and through you. You have to believe that your words or affirmations are sending vibrations through the cosmic energy field and through you, and you have to believe that your words will serve your purpose. You have to have good intent. Cleanse a space for an altar and place five stones to represent the elements. Thank the elements before beginning meditation. Light some sage. You are a part of the cosmic energy field because you are a spirit with a body. To have complete balance, you must study Esoteric science and use it in practice. Meditation is one of the practices that fits into Esoteric science. If you do not believe in Esoteric Science, then I can understand why meditation does nothing for you. You cannot half-do something. Your interested in meditation? Why don't you explore and look into it. Esoteric science is no less valid than orthodox science.

I don't believe that adopting the belief system labeled "Esoteric science" is at all necessary for developing a fruitful meditation practice. If anything it may simply serve to clutter up the mind and create further delusion. Meditation is not about adopting supernatural beliefs. It is about cultivating wholesome states of mind and purifying the mind of the defilements which cause it suffering.

Originally Posted by Argento

I am OK with conditioning...it is a necessary evil... Without the ability for the mind to become conditioned, you would never have learned to go to the shops and trade money for food. Or ask for directions.
Taoism seems to emphasize removal of the negative energies,
I say people should learn to accept negativity.

If we stop trying to strip this conditioning away...it finds its natural place. Then it only arises when the current situation requires it.

The issue is, of course, that this conditioning doesn't find it's natural place all by itself for most people. If it has for you, then you are born with quite the gift and will live a life without any inner turmoil (not sure why you'd be on here except to teach us)!

Meditation is a technique that helps you to intimately know your own mind and know what isn't your mind. Also, not quite sure why you would not want to get rid of negative conditioning. Just because we are conditioned to do some positive things doesn't mean that our conditioning shouldn't be more closely examined. Knowing the difference between conditioned action and pure awareness/choice doesn't mean that we throw away all actions with regards to society... rather, more and more, we make an active choice to participate instead of being unwittingly governed by events... And that awareness and active choice is what leads to equanimity.

As for the two types of energy being calm vs. fight or flight, I wouldn't classify them this way. There is something more subtle... There is discord and accord as well. When applied to fight or flight, discord is being frantic while trying to meet a deadline. Accord is what many people call being "in the zone". It isn't that the hormones aren't pumping, but there is a directedness of that energy, as much as there is during the silence of meditation.

Originally Posted by Argento

I think that meditation is impossible. If you even attempt it AT ALL, then you're doing it wrong.

While an ideal may be consistent equanimity, even in the absence of meditation, in my personal experience, and less anecdotally, a study by Johns Hopkins University, meditation does in fact increase "accord" with our own minds. If you haven't meditated, this cannot be discounted, and if you have and it hasn't worked for you, perhaps you should find a different method of contemplation... ultimately, it doesn't come down to a lengthy argument at this point, it comes down to personal difference.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/m...s-201401086967

From the Taoist perspective, I would posit that attaching one's self to NOT doing is just as harmful as attaching to doing. It is true that one can take whatever path one chooses, so in that sense not contemplating, meditating (whatever method you use) or refining at all is fine, but without something to take it's place, it is a path free from improvement, where we are at the mercy of forces outside of us... at least, unless we have reached a point where there is no discord in our minds and our lives become the meditative practice itself. I, for one, cannot claim this.

-TaoSandwich

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by TaoSandwich

The issue is, of course, that this conditioning doesn't find it's natural place all by itself for most people. If it has for you, then you are born with quite the gift and will live a life without any inner turmoil (not sure why you'd be on here except to teach us)!

Meditation is a technique that helps you to intimately know your own mind and know what isn't your mind. Also, not quite sure why you would not want to get rid of negative conditioning. Just because we are conditioned to do some positive things doesn't mean that our conditioning shouldn't be more closely examined. Knowing the difference between conditioned action and pure awareness/choice doesn't mean that we throw away all actions with regards to society... rather, more and more, we make an active choice to participate instead of being unwittingly governed by events... And that awareness and active choice is what leads to equanimity.

As for the two types of energy being calm vs. fight or flight, I wouldn't classify them this way. There is something more subtle... There is discord and accord as well. When applied to fight or flight, discord is being frantic while trying to meet a deadline. Accord is what many people call being "in the zone". It isn't that the hormones aren't pumping, but there is a directedness of that energy, as much as there is during the silence of meditation.



While an ideal may be consistent equanimity, even in the absence of meditation, in my personal experience, and less anecdotally, a study by Johns Hopkins University, meditation does in fact increase "accord" with our own minds. If you haven't meditated, this cannot be discounted, and if you have and it hasn't worked for you, perhaps you should find a different method of contemplation... ultimately, it doesn't come down to a lengthy argument at this point, it comes down to personal difference.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/m...s-201401086967

From the Taoist perspective, I would posit that attaching one's self to NOT doing is just as harmful as attaching to doing. It is true that one can take whatever path one chooses, so in that sense not contemplating, meditating (whatever method you use) or refining at all is fine, but without something to take it's place, it is a path free from improvement, where we are at the mercy of forces outside of us... at least, unless we have reached a point where there is no discord in our minds and our lives become the meditative practice itself. I, for one, cannot claim this.

-TaoSandwich

Good posting Tao! :)

I'm not sure Tao,

I am not here to teach anyone :/ I believe all teachings are conditioning.

"From the Taoist perspective, I would posit that attaching one's self to NOT doing is just as harmful as attaching to doing"
I'm much more interested in YOUR perspective

"If you haven't meditated, this cannot be discounted, and if you have and it hasn't worked for you, perhaps you should find a different method of contemplation"

I use it for relaxation and emotional balance. It works wonderfully. Can't call it meditation though, because meditation is not a thing. Not something a person can do.

It should read, "studies show that relaxation or awareness techniques can increase accord with our own minds"
If you sit to meditate, you are not meditating no matter how hard you try, or how many years you do it for.
Not one person in these studies performed meditation. They used a technique instead.


"Also, not quite sure why you would not want to get rid of negative conditioning"
I think you can't get rid of conditioning, it's judging something as negative causes that you to want to de-condition. Can you forget that 2+2=4 even if you sit for 20 years in silence?

Maybe you can become aware that most of your conditioning has very little use in daily life.

All techniques are relaxation or awareness techniques. There is no technique for meditation, not even the technique of having no technique (which most of you use)

Meditation is nothing like any of these things in Taoism. It's not anything. You don't understand what it is...That's impossible.