What are you meditating for?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Argento

I understand daz,

but what exactly is this thing that is beyond recognition?

There is no thing beyond .

There is what you are beyond but what you are beyond isn't anything .

Only from a point of self reference / recognition (within/of mind) does one know of their own existence .

This is known in/of mind by the one that perceives / observes / relates / concludes .

Beyond self is beyond a self knowing that one exists .

There is no perceiver / observer beyond and yet everything is present .

Everything that is beyond is everything that is here now .

Only in mind can one relate to what is everything in relation to 'what they are' and everything / nothing .

Meditation is a path that leads one to know/find self and the same path that leads beyond self .

x daz x

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Argento

Yes Gem, I understand how people do it. Having spent many many hours in meditation myself, you just sit there and don't do anything (and don't even try to sit there and not do anything either, and don't do that either ad infinitum.)

Some people spend years in the gym and see very little results. Others make impressive gains in short amounts of time. It's not about going through the motions, it's about skillfully directing your effort towards that which brings about the greatest benefits. From the sound of it, you may understand certain aspects of meditation, you may understand how some people meditate, but you haven't expressed a complete understanding or a full breadth of knowledge of the methods and purposes of meditation practice. It's not just about sitting there and not doing anything. This may be one idea of how to meditate but the results with this particular "strategy" are questionable and certainly don't take into account the various other methods that exist and the amazing results that come from other lines of meditation practice.

When you become truly accepting of the world, meditation is no longer necessary since there is no desire to change anything in you.

So are you suggesting that a person should be content with the unskillful qualities of their own mind, be content with the continuous poor choices that they make which harm themselves and those around them? Just accept it and continue acting harmfully? Or perhaps it is a good thing when a person decides that they have caused themselves enough suffering and work to rid themselves of the attachments, greed, ill-will, and delusions that burden them?

You haven't answered my question, so I'll ask again: What is one to do with these aspects of mind which gives rise to personal suffering and which burdens those around them as well? What is your solution? You have offered none thus far.

My point is that some day, you should have no more need for meditation. If you live in the here and now there is no need to bring yourself to the here and now (or more accurately: get yourself out of the way so that you become it)

The purpose of meditation is not just to "bring yourself to the here and now." That is just one tiny aspect of it, a beginning stage. Many people meditate to gain deeper insight into the nature of their mind and to train the mind to abandon harmful qualities and to acquire harmless and wholesome qualities. Again, please offer another avenue of achieving this aside from mindful introspection, concentration, and insight that are developed during meditation.

Meditation for presence will stop when you are already present. If here and now is where I naturally am, then I don't need it.

Although mindful momentary presence can be achieved at any time, it is effectively developed and able to be penetrated much deeper via meditation. To deny this simply displays that you have not experienced this fact yourself, but it does not negate its truth.

[jonesboy]

Good stuff Vince :)

Argento,

You keep talking about being in the present moment. That is the goal of meditation also :)

What is your definition of being present?

If I start talking to you about an old school teacher do you get lost in thought trying to relate while I am talking? If so that is not being present.

Does any past hurts or upsets still bother you? Is there anything that someone has done in the past that bothers you? If so that is not being present.

Do you ever think how nice it would be to win the lottery and day dream about traveling or what you would spend it on? If so that is not being present.

Do you ever suffer from road rage? If so you are not being present :)

If you walked outside and saw that someone had smashed your car all up would you be happy or upset? If you are upset longer than a second. Your not being present :)

Being present is the one thing people never are because they are always lost in thoughts, in believing they are there thoughts.

You have mentioned that the Buddha was a long time ago and his teachings are not realavent anymore. Where did you get that from? In just the Mahayama line of buddhism there are over 185 million people who practice those teachings. Have you ever read any of his teachings with a dhrama teacher? Have you ever even looked at the 4 Noble Truths? Read about them and tell me they are not accurate and relevant:)

You have mentioned that meditation is backed by science. That it can make your brain grow, works at the dna level and is a powerful tool for any stress related issue because it shrinks the amygdala glan in your brain. Maybe just like working out for you body people should workout the brain with meditation.

Let's pretend that i want to do it because i am unhappy. I want to change. I sit for 20 min. twice a day. So what, who cares if that is why I am doing. The science even proves it will make me happier and better at my job. Cool.

Beyond all that what you are missing and have not experienced is the higher level of counsciousness. Yes it is real, yes you can reach out and touch others. Yes there is more than just what one experiences in there day to day lives.

I would encourage you to open your mind and start reading and maybe trying some practices so that you can understand. Not trying to be mean but your Buddha comment shows your lack of learning/depth in these areas. That is ok, nothing wrong with that. Just have an open mind is all. :)

Cheers.

I have practised more meditation than the majority of meditators. An hour or 2 every day for more than 10 years. I have had every experience in the spiritual book.

Whatever your reasons, you are doing it to get something, because you want something. Nothing else. desire only. As long as you meditate, you have desire. You desire something from it.
When desires go, desire to meditate goes too.

I have already stated that I can't tell if you know something I don't or not...You tell me to open my mind..That is open mindedness...I accept that I may be wrong..do you?

Vince, there is no solution. Why do you want a solution? There is no problem.

Jonesboy emotions come and go, I feel every emotion WITH INTENSITY!!! Rage, delight, melancholy, bliss. No problem with any of these emotions.
It is common spiritual knowledge that your emotions blind you from the present. I think this is a farce. Emotions are STRONGER in the present, you just react to different stimuli than when daydreaming

Also I do a lot of driving in my job....I never get road rage....Have done in the past, but not in quite a few years

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Argento

I have practised more meditation than the majority of meditators. An hour or 2 every day for more than 10 years. I have had every experience in the spiritual book.

Many meditators I speak with have been meditating for 30+ years and have very different views than those expressed by you. I myself began meditating about 15 years ago.

When I was 20 years old I had just three years of weight training under my belt and I was stronger and more muscular than the majority of the adult trainers at my gym. They can claim to have more knowledge of bodybuilding and more experience but it means little if it is not applied effectively. I use this example because it's harder to accurately gauge the progress of a person's meditation practice than it is to see the clearly visible results of bodybuilding, but both these examples function the same. You can work out for hours a day for years straight, and get the best rushes and pumps, but if you're doing something wrong you aren't going to see optimal results and you aren't going to reach your goal. The point is, your ten years of experience mean very little. I have spoken with people who have meditated for twenty years and were still more lost than I was when I first started.

Whatever your reasons, you are doing it to get something, because you want something. Nothing else. desire only. As long as you meditate, you have desire. You desire something from it.
When desires go, desire to meditate goes too.

Desires are not necessarily bad. When they lead to mental stress and suffering, those are bad desires. When they lead to the cultivation of pure and wholesome states of mind and serve to help other people, those are good desires.

You are clearly not free of desire. Your posts come from a desire to say the things you are saying for whatever reasons you may have. To say that meditation is useless or wrong because it is an activity born from desire is missing the point completely. It isn't possible to just drop desire. The skillful use of desire and eventually the letting go of desire is something that comes with meditation practice and an effective spiritual path. I follow Buddhism and this is an integral aspect of the path. Desires play a crucial role in the mechanics of normal human functioning in this reality and they cannot just be abandoned like a bad habit. For the most part, every act of volition entails a choice, and every act of conscious choice entails the desire for whatever outcome any particular choice will bring.

Meditating can actually be seen as a temporary release from desire. When we go about our daily life our every move is driven by desire. Go here, do this, watch that, clean this, eat that. It is when we stop moving and settle into a peaceful place within that these desires can be released. The idea is to use desires skillfully.

Vince, there is no solution. Why do you want a solution? There is no problem.

There is a problem, and there is a solution. The problem is that the mind has greed, attachment, aversion, ill-will, delusion, and ignorance. You have them, I have them, everyone who has not rid their mind of them, has them as the result of our conditioning. This is a problem because these are the root causes of stress and suffering in life, and it is the nature of suffering to be problematic. The solution is to rid the mind of these unwholesome qualities and to cultivate wholesome and pure qualities. There is a path that leads to this, and meditation plays a fundamental role on this path.

"Hey guys, lets forget about all the problems of the world- wars, famine, corruption, slavery, violence, suffering. Apparently these aren't problems at all! Just let go of your desire and these things magically stop being problems. So, you constantly think in ways which give rise to personal anguish and cause you to act violently towards others. So, maybe your harmful mental qualities cause you to mentally and physically hurt people on a daily basis. Hey, stop desiring to change any of that! There's no problem! Continue hurting yourself and others for eternity!"

It seems you took a detour on your path, got lost, and convinced yourself that you reached your destination.

[jonesboy]

I noticed you didn't answer my questions btw about what being present means. That is important to the conversation.

I have practised more meditation than the majority of meditators. An hour or 2 every day for more than 10 years. I have had every experience in the spiritual book.

Whatever your reasons, you are doing it to get something, because you want something. Nothing else. desire only. As long as you meditate, you have desire. You desire something from it.
When desires go, desire to meditate goes too.

I have already stated that I can't tell if you know something I don't or not...You tell me to open my mind..That is open mindedness...I accept that I may be wrong..do you?

Ok :)

Lesson 12 - The Essential Ingredient -- Desire

From: Yogani
Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:48am

It is common knowledge that if we want to be successful at something, at anything, we must desire it continuously, and be willing to act to fulfill that desire every day. Think of the most successful people you know. Isn't this what they have in common? If we look at their lives, we see that they have worked long and hard to achieve excellence in their chosen field. Behind that, an insatiable desire to succeed in their efforts kept them driving them forward, overcoming obstacles, working for years toward their objective. It is like that in yoga and religion, which is working toward divine union.

Jesus said, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled." He also said, "Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will open to you."

This is the magic formula -- desire toward a goal, which spawns action toward that goal. Continuous desire is the fuel. Daily action is the fire. The word "continuous" is important, as is the word "goal." Without these two operative functions, desires are scattered, actions are unfocused, and not much happens. With them, anything is achievable.

If we cultivate our desire to become continuously focused on a particular goal, such as the achievement of divine union, we are cultivating a special kind of desire. It is called "devotion." Devotion is the continuous flow of desire toward an object or goal. We are all familiar with the concept of devotion. It is how we explain the success of great achievers: "Oh, she is so devoted to her work." Or of great mystics: "Oh, she is so devoted to God." It is no coincidence that devotion and greatness are found in the same place. The first invariably leads to the second. The second cannot happen without the first.

Whatever your concept of enlightenment may be, whatever tradition or creed you hail from, whatever inspires you in the direction of spiritual unfoldment, cultivate that. It is the engine of practice. It is what enables us to sustain daily spiritual practice for as long as it takes. As we practice, our divine experience grows, and, with that, devotion grows. Increased devotion intensifies our commitment to practice, and more dedicated practice yields more divine experience which in turn increases devotion further. This is how it progresses -- devotion yielding practice… yielding divine experience… yielding more devotion… and so on. Devotion sustained at a fever pitch by every means possible is the spiritual aspirant's best friend. It is not always an easy life being constantly consumed by spiritual "hunger and thirst," but it puts us on the royal road to enlightenment. Intense devotion to transforming our lives through advanced yoga practices assures that what must be done will be done.

Speaking of what must be done, now let's talk about the next step -- developing the habit of cultivating our eternal silent depths on a daily basis. Let's talk about meditation.

The guru is in you.

So yeap I am guilty.

Jonesboy emotions come and go, I feel every emotion WITH INTENSITY!!! Rage, delight, melancholy, bliss. No problem with any of these emotions.
It is common spiritual knowledge that your emotions blind you from the present. I think this is a farce. Emotions are STRONGER in the present, you just react to different stimuli than when daydreaming

You did mention daydreaming and rage.

You see the way I think of being present is not getting lost in daydreaming. That is a perfect example of not being present :) As I am sure you are aware there is an amazing feeling to being present. When present in the emotional body emotions can be felt like ecstasy following through as I am sure you know.

Nothing wrong experiencing life like that, nothing at all. Nothing wrong with being so present you can observe your thoughts. So present that you can choose which thoughts to go with. Which thoughts to express yet at the same time you are not attached to them.

Rage,

Why does one experience rage? Let's say we walk outside and see that someone had put a baseball bat through the front window of your car.

My practice has taught me that I have two choices here. I can accept reality and be happy or i can rage and then accept reality.

How do you do that? How do you let go of such an emotion like that so easy? There are practices that can help one learn how. A practice like Samyama. This is a practice where one takes a list of sutras and lets them go into silence. Take the word Love. At the barest thought/feeling of love you let go into inner silence. What this does in one aspect is when you start to have a negative thought or feeling you learn to let it go into that silence.

Using Samyama is how I was able to quit smoking and dipping. It was easy, as you as the urge or desire came upon me I was able to let it go. At the earliest moment until there were no more moments.

As say this as an example of a Yogic method of teaching one how to let go of negative thoughts and emotions.

Rage is used to show us our attachment to things that make us unhappy.

Would you rage if you walked in to see your closest relative being beaten? You won't have the option of being happy and accepting what is.

All emotions are there for a reason, even rage. It'll will save your life

Being present means whatever meaning you give it. I have to use these words to communicate my point, but it doesn't mean anything. There is no present