It isn't ONE Self it is Self that is all there is ..

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I don't know what you had for breakfast, Daz, and you don't know what colour of pyjamas I had on last night and had it not been for this forum neither of us would know the other existed. I am not all there is. And the objective reality is that all reality is subjective. And if "WE" are being all there is? Self only exists in relation to not-self, whatever that is.

Non-dualism is that individuality is false and illusory, isn't that duality in that you have that which is false and that which is - at least implied anyway - true? Or is it a cognitive disorder? I love it when non-dualists use dualism in their argument that there is no duality.

While people are going to spend so much time waxing Spiritual about oneness and separation they're going to miss one single point that is so simple it's difficult to understand - if there is no individuality there is no oneness. Is that so hard to understand? Individuality 'drives' consciousness, oneness becomes stagnation.


Together, we are one.

Sometimes Spirituality isn't about Spirituality.

I agree and you put across many aspects here that I myself have presented in times gone by .

The comparison needed in regards to your thoughts on all there is and not-self is inline with the dream realty needing a comparison for what isn't a dream reality .

This is common sense and straightforward to require a comparison for what is made as a statement .

The weird thing is that these statements about the reality doesn't hold any weight because the foundation is a dream and there is no one here to know the truth of that or realise that . Dream characters cannot know anything, there is just an appearance of someone seemingly knowing something .

I do try and understand certain peeps premises and I ask questions to death in order for peeps to explain themselves but it rarely happens as I am sure folks have seen on the forums over the years .

It's funny to see peeps argue their case while their premise doesn't support the truth of it .


x daz x

[Starman]

Originally Posted by God-Like

The spirit world experience is non physical and contains etheric form but is still of duality . Non duality in my eyes or what it refers too is beyond experience and beyond self . Just 'being' as you put it, beyond thought and beyond expression is more to my understanding of non duality, that is why when someone say's to me that non duality means there is no individual running around makes no sense to me .. because there is self awareness, there is I AMness present .

Non duality doesn't relate to I AMness or self awareness or experience or expression or thought ..

Of course non duality to some (excuse the pun) only means One not two, but again it comes with so many complications that don't add up, things that are being discussed of late .

x daz x

Ditto, makes sense to me.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by God-Like

There is no self to understand or experience, this is the contradiction . This is the confusion . You cannot know yourself if yourself isn't real .

You cannot pass through that stream of awareness you talk of because there is no-one to pass through anything .

self awareness of I AM is illusory .. This self evident awareness of self knowing isn't real or true or correct based upon non duality as discussed .

It's all dream ..



x daz x

As you are in this response...your current dream speaking out.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by God-Like

The spirit world experience is non physical and contains etheric form but is still of duality . Non duality in my eyes or what it refers too is beyond experience and beyond self . Just 'being' as you put it, beyond thought and beyond expression is more to my understanding of non duality, that is why when someone say's to me that non duality means there is no individual running around makes no sense to me .. because there is self awareness, there is I AMness present .

Non duality doesn't relate to I AMness or self awareness or experience or expression or thought ..

Of course non duality to some (excuse the pun) only means One not two, but again it comes with so many complications that don't add up, things that are being discussed of late .



x daz x

You seem to have this ‘thought’ always believing one has to disappear to reside in and as a non dual existence..

Why?

What do you mean by having ‘no expression’ as non dual awareness and being?

And why would spirit world still be in duality?

Who’s the perceiver and decider of this? Or better still who’s mind decides this?

Without projecting into what ‘just is’ its all temporary changing awareness..

So how do you as temporary changing awareness see and decide what is?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustBe

As you are in this response...your current dream speaking out.

You cannot know yourself if yourself isn't real .

Saying what you did in response to that makes no sense to me .

Can you elaborate?

I would say I know myself in relation to myself being known .

If self awareness as an individual is illusory and not real and dream material only, then there is no self to know is there .

An illusory dream self cannot know anything about it's true nature .

Only a real self consciously aware individual can know itself in relation to everything else.

If there are no actual other's and the world is illusory and dreamy then every reflection had would be equal to that .

There is no 'real'ly getting to know oneself at all -


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustBe

You seem to have this ‘thought’ always believing one has to disappear to reside in and as a non dual existence..

Why?

What do you mean by having ‘no expression’ as non dual awareness and being?

And why would spirit world still be in duality?

Who’s the perceiver and decider of this? Or better still who’s mind decides this?

Without projecting into what ‘just is’ its all temporary changing awareness..

So how do you as temporary changing awareness see and decide what is?

Non duality putting it mildly relates to ONE .

There can only be ONE when there is awareness of ONE .

ONE relates to all there is in entirety, not individuality for it is the absolute Self .

I don't normally use these words but I am trying to simply explain what I mean .

So while there is individuality and individual self awareness the non dual state or reference cannot be while there is still association to I AM.

There is beyond Iamness and this is what I am speaking about .

Beyond Iamness there is no thought of yourself, there is no self expression, no comparisons, no feelings etc etc .

This can be related to all there is that is what you are .

This roughly translated is what starman referred too as 'Being' .

You cannot be Self 'Being when you are self aware .

The spirit word would fit into the duality bracket because there is Iamness, there is self awareness as an individual, there are thoughts and expressions and emotions still in play -


x daz x

[Anala]

It is like a spoke on a wheel. Both need each other. The hub is the point of oneness and the spokes are the path traveled to view of experience oneness. Out on the wheel there are points of individuality struggling to get to the point of oneness. Then if you add some centrifugal force you see the energy to have the individual remain out in the wheel. The illusion is the centrifugal force. It is bound by physics and gravity and... and... so many rules.

But there is a point in spirituality when all the labels and rules are striped away and all is just word play and folly. What you are left with is pure energy, bound by no words or rules... at this point there is no wheel.

Originally Posted by Anala

It is like a spoke on a wheel. Both need each other. The hub is the point of oneness and the spokes are the path traveled to view of experience oneness. Out on the wheel there are points of individuality struggling to get to the point of oneness. Then if you add some centrifugal force you see the energy to have the individual remain out in the wheel. The illusion is the centrifugal force. It is bound by physics and gravity and... and... so many rules.

But there is a point in spirituality when all the labels and rules are striped away and all is just word play and folly. What you are left with is pure energy, bound by no words or rules... at this point there is no wheel.

Wow ..........

[Moonglow]

Hello,

Adding my thoughts.

I think non-duel gets misunderstood or some may be too strict in aplplying the meaning/concept. Just my opinion.

Non-duel, to me, is non-opposing. The day does not oppose the night, the various colors do not oppose each other. Opposing in the sense that one is trying to overtake the other.

All these variants and differences are only what is being observed, experienced, and perceived. According to what one is able to observe, experience, and perceive. Also, to what and/or how it (whatever it may be) is understood, known, and aware of.

So, how this existance is experienced includes the individual/self. The self is inclusive with in thie experience/life here. The self creates his/her own understandings, knowings, thoughts, beliefs, way of living. This is unique unto the self, but adds and blends with in the self and that which the self interacts with.

Much like all the other elements, organisms, particles, ect, interact and influence each.

With in this dance/interaction one can notice the connections and with in these connections one can notice a wholeness. The wholeness creating a sense of oneness.

Oneness does not negate the wonderful diversities of, but embraces it. Diversities do not negate the influences it may have upon each, but is of the whole.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Anala

It is like a spoke on a wheel. Both need each other. The hub is the point of oneness and the spokes are the path traveled to view of experience oneness. Out on the wheel there are points of individuality struggling to get to the point of oneness. Then if you add some centrifugal force you see the energy to have the individual remain out in the wheel. The illusion is the centrifugal force. It is bound by physics and gravity and... and... so many rules.

But there is a point in spirituality when all the labels and rules are striped away and all is just word play and folly. What you are left with is pure energy, bound by no words or rules... at this point there is no wheel.

Yes, for there cannot be one without the other, similar to the ocean and wave analogy that's been used on the other thread .

There is no separation had of the spokes or the wave from the hub or the source of what we are, but there is either individual expression within the whole or it is simply not the case and an illusion in effect .

Beyond the wheel or beyond the wave there is no thought about what is true or false or illusory and this has been my point in making when there are points of view stated regarding the reality of our worldly experience .

There is no realisation had that this world is illusory or dreamy and that the thought of I AM and the experience of I AM is part of an illusory dream ..


x daz x