Is the ego really separate from anything?

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Just my musings................

When the argument is being lost, one of the tools to be used is to accuse the other party of gaslighting. If you look at how the expression gaslighting is being used and who is using that expression, it might become evident what the true issue is all about.

To be honest BJ, I'm long past worrying about it. My words are going to get twisted and I'm going to be accused no matter what.

Originally Posted by janielee

Greenslade says: The clinical definition of ego means an inability to function according to Jung, not me.

Source: https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=114

Glad you now know it can be fully transcended and in fact for the Masters, the state of transcendence is a very real situ

I got that one wring, I don't know what I was thinking there.

Originally Posted by janielee

Oh now you are not into Jung?

It's been enlightening to go straight to the source, as opposed to get his representation from others.

Thanks for the conversations, and for getting to the bottom of years of your stance that Masters such as Jesus and Buddha operated with ego. (if you want to learn more, go to Carl Jung - although I would argue that one doesn't need to plumb the depths and every crook and crevice of ego. Once seen,
there are many spiritual expedients and this is where spirituality far surpasses psychology IMO; with full respect to psychology for what it does - assuming there are different schools therein anyway)

JL

I never said I wasn't into Jung, I said beyond the quotes not beyond Jung. I guess you won't come up with any real understanding than posting quotes. So far you haven't.

[Ewwerrin]

All is one and one is all.

The more you allow all that exists, the more you also allow yourself to be all that you truely are being and becoming evermore naturally and effortlessly and joyfully, freely, unconditionally worthy loved and guided and supported under any and all conditions, regardless of any and all conditions, unconditionally, energy motionally, emotionally, to allow your evermore natural and effortless and joyful greater allowed realisation of all that you and all truely are being and becoming evermore naturally and effortlessly and joyfully and freely here and now, as your evermore natural and effortless greater allowed realisation of all that you truely want to be do or have, as you also allow your evermore natural and effortless greater allowed realisation of all that you and all truely are being and becoming evermore here and now, through you, with you, for you, as you, by you, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by Kioma

If it 'seemed' like I was saying anything, it would be a friendly suggestion that you, like Greenslade, would both probably leave with much more credibility if you quit while you were ahead.

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=141

Of course if you want to continue to perpetuate the perception that you are both serial gaslighters - you are more than welcome to keep talking. I won't stand in your way, by any means.

I don't care about credibility, it's long past that stage too. I also don't give much of a stuff about what you think of me, and as for the glass houses you'd better put those stones down.

[Jyotir]

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“Healing comes only from that which leads the patient beyond himself and beyond his entanglements with ego.” - Carl Jung

Yes, entanglements indeed, which make sense given the apparent orientation and standard methods of entanglement ...

It seems abundantly clear that the relentless (observe the greatest post count in the thread) derogation and derailment of serious discussion on well established definitions and traditional principles - referred to derisively, dismissively, and ironically as “egotistical agenda”, “intentional ignorance”, etc., - is itself representative of an unctuous self-credentialing (coincident with the pretense of, “I don’t care about credibility”; no wonder the issue of gas-lighting credibly emerges), as with other shifty prevarications, repeatedly deliberate misappropriations, and deceitful evasions, all conveniently intended to obscure, mislead, and confuse, e.g. gas-lighting, in order to persistently attempt a superior position that is nevertheless ultimately superfluous, vacant, and false.

This is seen in the perverse demand or agenda for a grossly distorted restricted rationalized as exclusive yet spurious “mental health” point-of-view of spirituality/spiritual practice as if that insistence confers validity to it, but based on a reductive materialism and errant “scientism” which is utterly naïve and incorrect in the context of real spirituality:

That an inherently inalienable spiritual aspiration originating in, supported by, and eternally issuing from Spirit/Supreme Being that is universally available to all human beings as a subjective evolution of consciousness within the multiplicity of Life, is somehow necessarily unfounded, suspect, aberrant, “grandiose”, or even dangerous according to a self-proclaimed and presumed superior mental health “expertise”. In a way, this deceptive posturing has been the perfect illustration of the topic as a demonstration of adamant defense and anxious self-perpetuation of the very limitation, distortion, and false-self of ego, hence the irony.

As the great progenitor of modern psychology Carl Jung suggests in the above quotation, psychotherapy or the use of psychotropic medications no matter what modality or supervised by whatever level of professional expertise for the mitigation of mental health problems, dysfunction, or dysregulation, even when actually successful, does not and cannot constitute the full purpose, greatest range of available practice, nor offer the furthest possibilities of genuine spiritual practice. Rather, those nascent professional mental health means may at best be construed as adjunct, partial, subsidiary, or preparatory to a stable but merely conventional human life that simply preserves the status quo of ego-mind, separative cognition, maya, and samsara, that still results in suffering and confusion, etc. Misery likes company, apparently, and denial is a great facilitator of such.

It is much more likely that aberrations of mental health are the results of severe energetic imbalances, destructive obsessions and addictions, and karmic patterns that in many cases would be better served - and truly transformed - by a general spiritual approach to life, vs. the vigorous and elaborate avoidance of such, whether through vehement intellectual conniving or persistent energetic contriving, such as with the substitution of ineffective denials, partial anodynes, temporary palliatives, or hollow platitudes as evidenced by promotion throughout this thread, and typical of misunderstandings regarding the spiritual definition and import of ego, which is not simply a trivial dispensable abstract construct within sterile debate, but a fundamental condition of (human) existence that does have seriously detrimental practical consequences, and why a true spirituality which annihilates the separative cognition of ego is eventually unavoidable as the only real solution.

~ J

Originally Posted by Jyotir

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Yes, entanglements indeed, which make sense given the apparent orientation and standard methods of entanglement ...

It seems abundantly clear that the relentless (observe the greatest post count in the thread) derogation and derailment of serious discussion on well established definitions and traditional principles - referred to derisively, dismissively, and ironically as “egotistical agenda”, “intentional ignorance”, etc., - is itself representative of an unctuous self-credentialing (coincident with the pretense of, “I don’t care about credibility”; no wonder the issue of gas-lighting credibly emerges), as with other shifty prevarications, repeatedly deliberate misappropriations, and deceitful evasions, all conveniently intended to obscure, mislead, and confuse, e.g. gas-lighting, in order to persistently attempt a superior position that is nevertheless ultimately superfluous, vacant, and false.

This is seen in the perverse demand or agenda for a grossly distorted restricted rationalized as exclusive yet spurious “mental health” point-of-view of spirituality/spiritual practice as if that insistence confers validity to it, but based on a reductive materialism and errant “scientism” which is utterly naïve and incorrect in the context of real spirituality:

That an inherently inalienable spiritual aspiration originating in, supported by, and eternally issuing from Spirit/Supreme Being that is universally available to all human beings as a subjective evolution of consciousness within the multiplicity of Life, is somehow necessarily unfounded, suspect, aberrant, “grandiose”, or even dangerous according to a self-proclaimed and presumed superior mental health “expertise”. In a way, this deceptive posturing has been the perfect illustration of the topic as a demonstration of adamant defense and anxious self-perpetuation of the very limitation, distortion, and false-self of ego, hence the irony.

As the great progenitor of modern psychology Carl Jung suggests in the above quotation, psychotherapy or the use of psychotropic medications no matter what modality or supervised by whatever level of professional expertise for the mitigation of mental health problems, dysfunction, or dysregulation, even when actually successful, does not and cannot constitute the full purpose, greatest range of available practice, nor offer the furthest possibilities of genuine spiritual practice. Rather, those nascent professional mental health means may at best be construed as adjunct, partial, subsidiary, or preparatory to a stable but merely conventional human life that simply preserves the status quo of ego-mind, separative cognition, maya, and samsara, that still results in suffering and confusion, etc. Misery likes company, apparently, and denial is a great facilitator of such.

It is much more likely that aberrations of mental health are the results of severe energetic imbalances, destructive obsessions and addictions, and karmic patterns that in many cases would be better served - and truly transformed - by a general spiritual approach to life, vs. the vigorous and elaborate avoidance of such, whether through vehement intellectual conniving or persistent energetic contriving, such as with the substitution of ineffective denials, partial anodynes, temporary palliatives, or hollow platitudes as evidenced by promotion throughout this thread, and typical of misunderstandings regarding the spiritual definition and import of ego, which is not simply a trivial dispensable abstract construct within sterile debate, but a fundamental condition of (human) existence that does have seriously detrimental practical consequences, and why a true spirituality which annihilates the separative cognition of ego is eventually unavoidable as the only real solution.

~ J

Well said, as always.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I got that one wring, I don't know what I was thinking there.

This has been the position you have been arguing for years on years. Glad to see that we recognize that ego is to be fully transcended and moved past, and Carl Jung's direct words show that he well understood psychology was a provisional/interim step only.

Thanks, and be well,
JL

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

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.
.

Yes, entanglements indeed, which make sense given the apparent orientation and standard methods of entanglement ...

It seems abundantly clear that the relentless (observe the greatest post count in the thread) derogation and derailment of serious discussion on well established definitions and traditional principles - referred to derisively, dismissively, and ironically as “egotistical agenda”, “intentional ignorance”, etc., - is itself representative of an unctuous self-credentialing (coincident with the pretense of, “I don’t care about credibility”; no wonder the issue of gas-lighting credibly emerges), as with other shifty prevarications, repeatedly deliberate misappropriations, and deceitful evasions, all conveniently intended to obscure, mislead, and confuse, e.g. gas-lighting, in order to persistently attempt a superior position that is nevertheless ultimately superfluous, vacant, and false.

This is seen in the perverse demand or agenda for a grossly distorted restricted rationalized as exclusive yet spurious “mental health” point-of-view of spirituality/spiritual practice as if that insistence confers validity to it, but based on a reductive materialism and errant “scientism” which is utterly naïve and incorrect in the context of real spirituality:

That an inherently inalienable spiritual aspiration originating in, supported by, and eternally issuing from Spirit/Supreme Being that is universally available to all human beings as a subjective evolution of consciousness within the multiplicity of Life, is somehow necessarily unfounded, suspect, aberrant, “grandiose”, or even dangerous according to a self-proclaimed and presumed superior mental health “expertise”. In a way, this deceptive posturing has been the perfect illustration of the topic as a demonstration of adamant defense and anxious self-perpetuation of the very limitation, distortion, and false-self of ego, hence the irony.

As the great progenitor of modern psychology Carl Jung suggests in the above quotation, psychotherapy or the use of psychotropic medications no matter what modality or supervised by whatever level of professional expertise for the mitigation of mental health problems, dysfunction, or dysregulation, even when actually successful, does not and cannot constitute the full purpose, greatest range of available practice, nor offer the furthest possibilities of genuine spiritual practice. Rather, those nascent professional mental health means may at best be construed as adjunct, partial, subsidiary, or preparatory to a stable but merely conventional human life that simply preserves the status quo of ego-mind, separative cognition, maya, and samsara, that still results in suffering and confusion, etc. Misery likes company, apparently, and denial is a great facilitator of such.

It is much more likely that aberrations of mental health are the results of severe energetic imbalances, destructive obsessions and addictions, and karmic patterns that in many cases would be better served - and truly transformed - by a general spiritual approach to life, vs. the vigorous and elaborate avoidance of such, whether through vehement intellectual conniving or persistent energetic contriving, such as with the substitution of ineffective denials, partial anodynes, temporary palliatives, or hollow platitudes as evidenced by promotion throughout this thread, and typical of misunderstandings regarding the spiritual definition and import of ego, which is not simply a trivial dispensable abstract construct within sterile debate, but a fundamental condition of (human) existence that does have seriously detrimental practical consequences, and why a true spirituality which annihilates the separative cognition of ego is eventually unavoidable as the only real solution.

~ J

Your post explains the process of how all those patterns within an ego play out.
I suppose you could say,( no actually it’s a truth) when you strip arrogance right back, it becomes great teacher of humility.

If your not open and aware of yourself, continuously, through all relating, their is the tendency to spit out knowledge, without truly understanding deeper it’s own nature within that knowledge. So then you see a stagnation in the relating. Going over and over the same ground of ones knowing. Saturating oneself so entwined, they start to then believe ‘this is the truth’ ..

But wait...


When you have a tight grip upon what is ‘known’ and protect yourself at all costs in that knowing, you can miss those vital links to revealing the truth of ‘you’.

But then I suppose it is all dependent upon whether one is settled in the comfort of believing they ‘know the truth’ ..and that is that!!!!


You are the truth ...doh! So don’t avoid yourself.

I’m role playing J, not directing this at you. ��

Originally Posted by janielee

This has been the position you have been arguing for years on years. Glad to see that we recognize that ego is to be fully transcended and moved past, and Carl Jung's direct words show that he well understood psychology was a provisional/interim step only.

Thanks, and be well,
JL

I've never said the ego couldn't be transcended, what I did say was that being ego-less and transcending the ego can be egotistical. It's easy for people to say that they have transcended the ego when they've defined it for their own egotistical agenda. Just like all those other armchair psychologists who say that the Jungian definition of the ego has no relevance to the Spiritual Adept - Jyotir's words, by the way so are you going to have a discussion about him being incorrect in the light of your newly-found discoveries?

Originally Posted by Jyotir

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.
.

Yes, entanglements indeed, which make sense given the apparent orientation and standard methods of entanglement ...

It seems abundantly clear that the relentless (observe the greatest post count in the thread) derogation and derailment of serious discussion on well established definitions and traditional principles - referred to derisively, dismissively, and ironically as “egotistical agenda”, “intentional ignorance”, etc., - is itself representative of an unctuous self-credentialing (coincident with the pretense of, “I don’t care about credibility”; no wonder the issue of gas-lighting credibly emerges), as with other shifty prevarications, repeatedly deliberate misappropriations, and deceitful evasions, all conveniently intended to obscure, mislead, and confuse, e.g. gas-lighting, in order to persistently attempt a superior position that is nevertheless ultimately superfluous, vacant, and false.

This is seen in the perverse demand or agenda for a grossly distorted restricted rationalized as exclusive yet spurious “mental health” point-of-view of spirituality/spiritual practice as if that insistence confers validity to it, but based on a reductive materialism and errant “scientism” which is utterly naïve and incorrect in the context of real spirituality:

That an inherently inalienable spiritual aspiration originating in, supported by, and eternally issuing from Spirit/Supreme Being that is universally available to all human beings as a subjective evolution of consciousness within the multiplicity of Life, is somehow necessarily unfounded, suspect, aberrant, “grandiose”, or even dangerous according to a self-proclaimed and presumed superior mental health “expertise”. In a way, this deceptive posturing has been the perfect illustration of the topic as a demonstration of adamant defense and anxious self-perpetuation of the very limitation, distortion, and false-self of ego, hence the irony.

As the great progenitor of modern psychology Carl Jung suggests in the above quotation, psychotherapy or the use of psychotropic medications no matter what modality or supervised by whatever level of professional expertise for the mitigation of mental health problems, dysfunction, or dysregulation, even when actually successful, does not and cannot constitute the full purpose, greatest range of available practice, nor offer the furthest possibilities of genuine spiritual practice. Rather, those nascent professional mental health means may at best be construed as adjunct, partial, subsidiary, or preparatory to a stable but merely conventional human life that simply preserves the status quo of ego-mind, separative cognition, maya, and samsara, that still results in suffering and confusion, etc. Misery likes company, apparently, and denial is a great facilitator of such.

It is much more likely that aberrations of mental health are the results of severe energetic imbalances, destructive obsessions and addictions, and karmic patterns that in many cases would be better served - and truly transformed - by a general spiritual approach to life, vs. the vigorous and elaborate avoidance of such, whether through vehement intellectual conniving or persistent energetic contriving, such as with the substitution of ineffective denials, partial anodynes, temporary palliatives, or hollow platitudes as evidenced by promotion throughout this thread, and typical of misunderstandings regarding the spiritual definition and import of ego, which is not simply a trivial dispensable abstract construct within sterile debate, but a fundamental condition of (human) existence that does have seriously detrimental practical consequences, and why a true spirituality which annihilates the separative cognition of ego is eventually unavoidable as the only real solution.

~ J

"God in all. All in God. All as God." - - - Sri Aurobindo - - - "All life is Yoga."
Sri Aurobindo's Teaching


Just doing God's work, as you do.