Please Help!

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by face

What is it about Jesus' teachings on love that Abbie feels would be a betrayal to what is "applicable" to her?

Abbie didn't say that it was Jesus' teachings on love that would be a betrayal. Where did you see that? She was talking about integrating with her bf's Christian background. Traditionally, many Christians believe that Jesus is the answer, the world's salvation, the only way to God. Abbie says she's spiritual, meaning that she is open to accept different things, not just one. This traditional Christian discrimination is shown in how her bf says 'a Christian must only marry another Christian'.

Both people changing to make a relationship work is fine, but wanting the other person to change their deeply held spiritual beliefs is not. Why would someone see another person's spiritual beliefs as a problem? What exactly is wrong with Abbie's beliefs, that she would need to change them in order to have a strong, healthy relationship?

Abbie said
"I just feel very unsure about converting - I did do a little research yesterday & the one thing that jumped out at me was the belief in only one life. I have had past life regression & have always strongly believed in re-incarnation as a way of spiritual & soul growth."

All I'm saying is that she shouldn't have to feel like she needs to convert in the first place. She should be allowed to keep her spiritual beliefs. Her bf seeing her beliefs as a potential problem is not her fault. It's the fault of traditional Christian discrimination.

Abbie didn't say that it was Jesus' teachings on love that would be a betrayal. Where did you see that?

She talked about converting to Christianity. Tell me, seawolf, what is the difference between Christianity and Christ? If she wasn't talking about Jesus, who was she talking about?

She was talking about integrating with her bf's Christian background.

Oh I see. Well, that's exactly what I addressed to her in my initial post. Did you not read it? I said that if her ultimate loyalty is to her BF then she should not feel guilty about pretending to be a Christian to please him. It's not like God will be fooled by it and as long as she is honest with herself that she is pretending for his sake, then she should be fine.

If her boyfriend is the kind of Christian willing to accept that arrangement then he's probably not really the kind of Christian Jesus was promoting anyway so there should be no problem for either of them.

Traditionally, many Christians believe that Jesus is the answer, the world's salvation, the only way to God. Abbie says she's spiritual, meaning that she is open to accept different things, not just one

No, you are putting words in her mouth. She made it clear that her personal feeling is that, to "convert" to Christianity would be a betrayal of what she feels is "spirituality".

But even then, you are saying that, as a part of her "spirituality" she is open to "other things", at the same time you say it would be wrong for her to be open to Christianity. Once again, you exclude Christianity from spirituality. Why is that?

[QUOTEThis traditional Christian discrimination is shown in how her bf says 'a Christian must only marry another Christian'. ][/quote]

Why is it "discrimination" for someone to have a conscience? Is it discrimination that you insist the BF must change his point of view?

Both people changing to make a relationship work is fine, but wanting the other person to change their deeply held spiritual beliefs is not.

Remember what abbie said about her beliefs? She's willing to try something new for the sake of her love. Also, her "deeply held" belief seems to hinge quite heavily on what her friends, here on this forum, will think of her if she does try something new. Would you have anything to do with that, seawolf?

Based on the facts of what has actually been said, you seem to hold her beliefs more deeply than she does.

Why would someone see another person's spiritual beliefs as a problem? What exactly is wrong with Abbie's beliefs, that she would need to change them in order to have a strong, healthy relationship?

Why does it need to be a "problem" with her beliefs? Why the need to make this into a personal war? The guy was talking about HIS beliefs, not hers. You've not ONCE considered this issue from his point of view. It's all about why abbie is being wronged and it seems to all hinge on some personal grudge you have with Christianity.

Go back and read my initial post. I gave options which consider BOTH of their points of view. Can you do something similar, please?

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by face

Once again, you exclude Christianity from spirituality. Why is that?
Why is it "discrimination" for someone to have a conscience? Is it discrimination that you insist the BF must change his point of view?

If the bf cannot marry her unless she changes her beliefs, then yes I am discriminating against him. LOL

Remember what abbie said about her beliefs? She's willing to try something new for the sake of her love. Also, her "deeply held" belief seems to hinge quite heavily on what her friends, here on this forum, will think of her if she does try something new. Would you have anything to do with that, seawolf?

You certainly have some strong opinions.

I don't care what religion/spirituality a person is. It's not my place to say what others should believe. If Abbie wants to be a Christian, then more power to her. Why should I care? All I'm talking about is not changing your spiritual beliefs just to please someone else. I believe that is against the conscience, which is why I said "That's no way to live".

Maybe someone else can interject?

All I'm talking about is not changing your spiritual beliefs just to please someone else.

Depends on what your spiritual belief is, what it means to betray that belief, and whether or not the "change" in question really does represent a betrayal.

Can you explain how you see abbie's suggestion as a betrayal to her beliefs, based on what she actually said about her beliefs, and what Christianity is really all about?

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by face

Depends on what your spiritual belief is, what it means to betray that belief, and whether or not the "change" in question really does represent a betrayal.

Can you explain how you see abbie's suggestion as a betrayal to her beliefs, based on what she actually said about her beliefs, and what Christianity is really all about?

Abbie expressed concern about converting to her boyfriend's religion. She pointed out that she doesn't believe in just 'one life', but has had an experience with past life regression. She's certainly free to change her beliefs, but to do it in order to gain her boyfriend's acceptance and so he will marry her is a betrayal of the self, and no one else. 'Be true to thine own self'.

What Christianity is all about? That's a joke right? :-) It's many things to many people.

She's certainly free to change her beliefs, but to do it in order to gain her boyfriend's acceptance and so he will marry her is a betrayal of the self, and no one else. 'Be true to thine own self'.

But that depends on what her beliefs are in the first place. You say she has a right to change her beliefs, but only if the reason for that change conforms with your understanding of what is a right or wrong reason to change.

For example, Jesus teaches very explicitly that his followers' loyalty to him must be greater than anything, including family loyalties and emotional attachments.

In that situation it would be quite clear that someone compromising on his/her conscience for the sake of please someone else would be going against his/her beliefs.

But, is Abby bound by that kind of discipline? She made a very clear distinction between the teachings of Jesus (i.e. christianity) and her own "spirituality". That being the case, it appears that she is NOT bound by the same teachings Jesus gave regarding loyalty.

She is free to chop and change without feeling guilty. Unless, there IS some overlap between her own beliefs and Christianity? In that case, does she really need to "convert"?

If Jesus taught love, and Abby testified that her own spirituality is based on love, then why this animosity about being "forced to change"? Why not look for the common ground and work from there?

Is this "past lives" thing really an insurmountable obstacle? Ultimately only Abby can answer that question since she's the one who brought it up, but it still makes for an interesting hypothetical situation.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by face

She is free to chop and change without feeling guilty. Unless, there IS some overlap between her own beliefs and Christianity? In that case, does she really need to "convert"?

I hope that they'd be able to focus on common ground as well. I hope that whatever beliefs they share would be enough, to allow them to let go of the idea of anyone having to change their beliefs. Let love rule.

Well, maybe "change" isn't really the appropriate word here, though I do still feel there is a problem with one partner in a relationship outlaws change for him/herself while remaining very open to the other person changing.

Perhaps a better word would be "acceptance" of common ground. If the BF is unwilling to see the Christian attributes in Abbie's behavior, then that is a fault in him. But at the same time, I don't think Abbie needs to feel guilty about changing her own beliefs IF it is an expression of her love for the BF, because she herself says that love is a part of her spirituality.

BTW, thank you, seawolf, for sticking through this debate even though we've disagreed quite strongly on some points.

Never change who you are for a mate. if he doesnt love you for who you are leave him he aint worth the tears. he has the problem you do not you havent changed he has. seems like you are in love with the ma before he converted not after. If you agree to this and loose who you are and what you believe in then your headed down a dangerous path.

hey occy,

I don't think the situation is quite as black and white as you make it out to be, nor that abby described it in such definite terms. Once again, there seems to be some kind of bias working here, which exaggerates what was actually said.

You may have missed it in the exchanges between seawolf and me, but I suggested that there could very well be some overlap in what the two of them believe and that it does not necessarily need to be a case of either one person changing or the other.

The two of them MAY see it that way now, but what a horrible way to live, where we insist that our current point of view is the only point of view we will ever have and the only options are to make ultimatums and/or dump the other person outright in the name of our own pure idealism.

Based on what you know of Christianity and , at least some of what Abby shared about her beliefs, can you see area where they already have something in common to work with regarding their apparent differences?

Did abby share anything about what the BF said to indicate that this issue is not as black and white as you've made it out to be? (hint:yes he did).