Who is the ' Us and Our ' ?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by inavalan

No, I was referring to every individual awareness being connected with all the others at a subtle,
non-physical level, so forming a "oneness" of interconnections between individual awarenesses.

I follow.

[Phaelyn]

One of the beliefs of ancient Israel's faith was in a Heavenly Council. A group of holy ones who ruled. It also appears in other places like in Psalm 89:5-7

Psalm 89:5-7
New International Version
5 The heavens praise your wonders, Lord,
your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones.
6 For who in the skies above can compare with the Lord?
Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings?
7 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;
he is more awesome than all who surround him.

I saw YHVH sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right and on his left.
(1 Kings 22:19)

One basic idea there is when God and gods council, (angels do their part as well in some biblical passages) made earth, human kind etc, "heaven" was very, very crowded! The belief was not only in a heavenly council who ruled together, but also in many thousands of other beings. The ancient Israel's faith was not imagining some empty place where a singular god was alone because the earth was not created yet. The opposite, heaven was a well established place with many thousands of beings living there.

The Ancient of Days took his seat...
Thousands upon thousands were attending him
And myriads upon myriads were standing before him.
(Daniel 7:9-10)

Here are two quotes showing God and another holy being ruling/working together: The second one also adds in angels.

When [Yeshua] had made purification of sins,
he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
(Heb 1:3)

I charge you in the presence of God and of Messiah Yeshua
and of the holy angels. (1 Tim 5:21)

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

One of the beliefs of ancient Israel's faith was in a Heavenly Council. A group of holy ones who ruled. It also appears in other places like in Psalm 89:5-7

Psalm 89:5-7
New International Version
5 The heavens praise your wonders, Lord,
your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones.
6 For who in the skies above can compare with the Lord?
Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings?
7 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;
he is more awesome than all who surround him.

I saw YHVH sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right and on his left.
(1 Kings 22:19)

One basic idea there is when God and gods council, (angels do their part as well in some biblical passages) made earth, human kind etc, "heaven" was very, very crowded! The belief was not only in a heavenly council who ruled together, but also in many thousands of other beings. The ancient Israel's faith was not imagining some empty place where a singular god was alone because the earth was not created yet. The opposite, heaven was a well established place with many thousands of beings living there.

The Ancient of Days took his seat...
Thousands upon thousands were attending him
And myriads upon myriads were standing before him.
(Daniel 7:9-10)

Here are two quotes showing God and another holy being ruling/working together: The second one also adds in angels.

When [Yeshua] had made purification of sins,
he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
(Heb 1:3)

I charge you in the presence of God and of Messiah Yeshua
and of the holy angels. (1 Tim 5:21)

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I ' the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone. God made all things alone.

So the ' Us ' in ' Let Us make man in Our image ' can't be Angels, people are not created in the image of Angels but of God and Angels can't create.....


If you look at Isaiah 6:8 , God is speaking in singular and then switches to plural. He says, ' Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us ' the singular speaker refers to himself in the plural.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Wait, could you expound on that a bit.
My light bulb isn't quite screwed in all the way.

Miss Hepburn,

Sorry to not get back to your request sooner. In regards to duality and non duality because this is a Christian forum I would refer you to the entirety of the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians. It is divided into 2 basic sections...first, spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit and second, functions of spiritual gifts in the body of Christ. Specifically v. 7...."now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good....and v. 12...."the body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though its parts are many, they form one body..."

Non duality recognizes oneness while at the same time acknowledging the individuality and necessity of each part. This establishes a balance that is necessary for completeness. We know, for example, the value and necessity of even our little toe for proper functioning. If we use the analogy of sports teams we understand that they function as one team....with each position player playing an essential role. It is the same for businesses and almost every human endeavor. There is a supporting role that must be played for the sucessful completion of any role that humans embark upon.

Non duality recognizes this and this cooperative work is accomplished when the various parts subdue egoistic impules that would threaten the functioning of the whole.

This leads us back to the 'us' that was originally referenced in this particular thread.....the 'us' is spoken as a nod to the reality of the many parts(personalities even) that it references. For me personally it goes back to the concept that nothing can exist outside of God. Whether we accept it or not we are all parts of God.....it is just that sometimes it is difficult for us to recognize the many faces of God......

Originally Posted by sky123

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I ' the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone. God made all things alone.

So the ' Us ' in ' Let Us make man in Our image ' can't be Angels, people are not created in the image of Angels but of God and Angels can't create.....


If you look at Isaiah 6:8 , God is speaking in singular and then switches to plural. He says, ' Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us ' the singular speaker refers to himself in the plural.

sky123,

Very interesting....:) I would suggest that the original man(from the first creation story) was an angel and was created as an angel. Nevertheless, image is image and something that is an image of God is not God the creator. The second creation story produced Adam and Eve and once again was a creation of God not of the angels.

In the Isaiah 6:8 citation it seems clear that God alone claims the authority to make all decisions(not the collective of angels). Phaelyn referenced Hebrews 1......Hebrews 1:14 helps clarify the role of angels...."Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation ?" Angels can be viewed as assistants to God....it is much in line with my previous post that spoke of the body of Christ. Each part(each angel) has a specific role to play that helps to make manifest the Creator God.

[Miss Hepburn]

Molearner -That was quite good. And I will enjoy re-reading Ch 12.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

sky123,

Very interesting....:) I would suggest that the original man(from the first creation story) was an angel and was created as an angel. Nevertheless, image is image and something that is an image of God is not God the creator. The second creation story produced Adam and Eve and once again was a creation of God not of the angels.

In the Isaiah 6:8 citation it seems clear that God alone claims the authority to make all decisions(not the collective of angels). Phaelyn referenced Hebrews 1......Hebrews 1:14 helps clarify the role of angels...."Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation ?" Angels can be viewed as assistants to God....it is much in line with my previous post that spoke of the body of Christ. Each part(each angel) has a specific role to play that helps to make manifest the Creator God.

Thanks Mo, lots of interesting ' Food for thought ' in your Post's. Oh to get into the minds of the Scripture writers they certainly had vivid imaginations.

Originally Posted by sky123

Thanks Mo, lots of interesting ' Food for thought ' in your Post's. Oh to get into the minds of the Scripture writers they certainly had vivid imaginations.

Sky123,

Thanks to you......but I must smile a little....:). I am of the school that scripture is inspired to a large extent....I.e. .....the scripture writers got some outside help....:)

[BigJohn]

Genesis 1:26, from the New International Version (NIV) Bible reads:

Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

This is from the first 'creation' account mentioned in the Bible. The first 'creation' account covers Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:3. If the first chapter of the Bible covered only the first 'creation' account instead of overflowing into the second chapter, we would have a better understanding of what really was transpiring.

In this 'creation' account, the entity involved in Hebrew is אֱלֹהִ֑ים which gets transliterated, that is put in to an English looking format that when spoken comes close to a pronunciation of the Hebrew word which is written as ’ĕ·lō·hîm and is typically translated as God in the first few chapters of Genesis.

This 'creation' account is the 'Elohist' version of 'creation'.

Starting with Genesis 2:4, the second 'creation' account begins. In this account, the Hebrew word יְהוָ֥ה is used. The word typical gets transliterated as Yahweh and gets typically translated as LORD.

This 'creation' account is the 'Yahwist' version of 'creation'.

If you look at both accounts on their own merit, they are not complementary. They were written by two distinct groups and when compiled to become Genesis, it appears the 'story' even got tweaked. For example, the name Elohim and Yahweh were introduced apparently separate but when compiled for Genesis, it appears the words were used together such as Elohim Yahweh or Yahweh Elohim.

As for the two 'creation' accounts, I suspect during the Jewish dysphoria to Babylon, these accounts were compiled. The method used may have been the same method used in the Talmud. In the Talmud, questions are posed to Rabbis and they give their opinions. In the Genesis 'creation' accounts, it is not that clear that 2 'possible' 'creation' accounts are being provided. That is why I believe the Talmud was compiled later with improvements.

If what I say is true, then the Genesis accounts are not myths but are 'creation' accounts postulated as possible 'creation' accounts very similar to what some in our own mist have postulated.

As for the expression "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness" appears to pose some interesting questions. The first issue is who is the 'us'. Some have speculated that some of the 'us' could have been some of the 'sons of god'.

The Apostle Paul/Saint Paul addressed the early Christians at Colossae and mentioned in Colossians 1:15-16, from the New International Version (NIV) the following:

  15. The Son is the image of the invisible God,
           the firstborn over all creation.

      16. For in him all things were created:
            things in heaven and on earth,
                    visible and invisible,
 whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him.


What the Apostle Paul/Saint Paul wrote, helps clarify the 'us'.
The 'us', in this case, was God and his Son, Jesus.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Sky123,

Thanks to you......but I must smile a little....:). I am of the school that scripture is inspired to a large extent....I.e. .....the scripture writers got some outside help....:)

Or maybe ' Inside ' help . Once we go ' Beyond ' the ' Senses ' anything is possible....