Brahman=Logos?

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

In this regard, Christianity later fell in the same pitfall as Buddhism did.

Not exactly. Buddhism at that time was surrounded by the majority religion of Hinduism, which was hostile to it. So it needed a patron like Ashoka to protect it at its growing stages. Also Buddhism was not forcibly put on people and there was no coercive conversions to it.

Buddhism was uprooted from India many centuries later on mainly due to Brahminical intolerance which was improper. This was an unfortunate part of Indian history and Buddhism became a minority religion. The fact that Ashoka's missionaries spread the faith to other countries enabled the rejuvenation of Buddhism in India later on to some extent.

Christianity was persecuted by the roman emperors for many centuries till it was finally and reluctantly adopted by the romans as the state religion for political reasons.

However the very brutal methods adopted for persecuting christians were then adopted with some modifications for persecuting other religions, so called apostates, witches, devil worshippers and so on.

Also the centuries of persecution prevented the consolidation of the original christianity as taught by Christ, and what was accepted by the Romans as the standard version of Christianity (after modification and editions of the christian scriptures in the councils of Nicea and Constantinople) was a vastly fragmented and incomplete version of Christianity, imho.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by The Anointed

. IMO, your Mahatma Ghandi, spoke before thinking through what he was going to say,

Does this mean to say that your spokesman, saw the law that says life for life, would lead to a lifeless world also? How ridiculous.

I would invite YOU to think through what YOU are saying about "life for life".

If everyone whose life was taken was avenged by another ... and that life taken was avenged by another ... and that life taken was avenged by another ... and that life taken was avenged by another ........

.... how would the killing cycle end ?

You don't have to answer that as the answer is obvious.

This is precisely what questions arise when scriptural literalists blindly quote others and present as if they are speaking on behalf of God.

In any case, your posts about eternal damnation and hellfire give others a clear picture of what you consider to be "divinely inspired". You are certainly entitled to your opinions. There are indeed many who believe as you do.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Inquisitions and burning at the stake are still done, even today. They are disguised under different names. For example, people are still publicly accused of doing certain trumped up 'things' in the hopes of getting rid of them.

This is quite true...unfortunately.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by The Anointed

IMO, we should hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit 'MIGHT' be saved on the day of the Lord.

As per eastern philosophy, the so-called criminals and serial killers are victims of their own cravings and aversions that overpowers the sense of virtuous conduct in them.

As per meditation teacher S.N.Goenka, " It is impossible to commit an unwholesome action—to insult, kill, steal, or rape without generating great agitation in the mind, great craving and aversion. This moment of craving or aversion brings unhappiness now, and more in the future. "

So it is actually raag-dvesh or strong desires in the form of cravings and aversions that are the source of all vices like lust, hatred, greed, and all corresponding crimes like rape, murder, arson, robbery and so on.

Spiritual exercises as in meditation, being in satsang, virtuous conduct, and others enables the elimination of the vasanas or psychological impressions that are the causes of such strong desires.

All habits and addictions are just strong vasanas in the unconscious that can be eliminated by conscious practice of spiritual methods.

As the saying goes, 'Hate the sin, not the sinner'.

Angulimala and Ratnakara are two examples of criminals who were reformed by the company of Buddha and Sage Narada respectively.

Capital punishment or other methods of punishments can deter such crimes mentioned to some extent. But these are trimming the leaves, and will not lead to a root cause understanding and resolution of the issue.

Also the modern world is such that individual desires are inflamed to the largest extent possible by social conditioning factors and marketing agencies and ads which unscrupulously injects more desires into the human mind and exacerbates the issue further.

So, a proper understanding of the mind by study and spiritual practices like meditation, virtuous conduct, satsang and so on are needed to create self-regulated individuals, and not just external regulations and rules.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by The Anointed

If God thinks that there is a chance of saving the invisible mind that He, that's out of my hands, but that animal will never kill another child.

The Bhagavad Gita taught by Krishna also emphasizes performance of duty in all situations and circumstances. If a doctor failed to administer medicine to a patient in time, or if a policeman fails in his duty to patrol a crime-ridden street, it would be a sinful act creating negative karma, as per Krishna.

However Krishna also teaches about the working of the mind, and the reasons for it going out of control or astray leading to destructive tendencies, and the importance of self-mastery.

Thinking of objects, attachment to them is formed in a man. Attachment gives rise to desire and desire (when obstructed) breeds anger. From anger comes delusion which results in loss of memory of the Self.

The loss of memory causes destruction of discrimination (on right and wrong) and from the ruin of discrimination the man perishes. ~ Krishna (BG- 2:63)

The mind is indeed very difficult to restrain. But by practice and detachment, it can be mastered. ~ BG (6.35)

For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy. ~ Krishna (BG 6.6)

So there should be focus on both short-term and long-term solutions to such issues, and not mere pruning of the leaves which are just cosmetic in nature and will not bring about fundamental changes.

[HITESH SHAH]

Silent witness or spectator of crime also a party to crime in spirituality.
So in the situation of heinous crime happening , one need to act resisting/mitigating/stopping it in every possible manner.

[ajay00]

External rules and regulations are a good education itself in right conduct and etiquette, imho.
Some people found just being in prison a life changing experience. As per an interview, the popular Indian film star Jackie Shroff found himself in prison for a street brawl as a teenager. He credited his prison experience for a few weeks as begetting much needed introspection and self-change. He later had a successful career as an actor and is an activist and philanthropist too.

Access to educators, counselors, libraries and psychologists can also greatly help prisoners, as well as jobs later on in society without any stigma issues.
One should stop any crime if one has the training and resources for it. Generally, it is better to call the police though instead of doing any heroics that may prove to be counterproductive. One must exercise one's judgement in this regard prudently without being a coward as well.

It should not be that instead of shooting the criminal, one shoot the victim instead due to poor markmanship and compound the issue.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Silent witness or spectator of crime also a party to crime in spirituality.
So in the situation of heinous crime happening , one need to act resisting/mitigating/stopping it in every possible manner.

Of course, I agree with what you wrote. However, without mentioning names (not you ), I will raise a related question. Despite all the high-sounding talk on forums such as these, I wonder how many people actually practice what they preach when confronted with such a situation. It's easy to be a "holy righteous" person while chatting safe and sound on a spiritual forum. It's easy for some people to post long series of Biblical quotes. It's a totally different thing when actually confronted with such situations and that is why I pay more attention to how people act as opposed to what they say in public venues.

This discussion brings to mind a personal incident of this nature only a few years ago. It was about 1 AM in the morning as I was a few blocks from my house after attending an evening performance at the Metropolitan Opera House in NYC. Suddenly, directly in front of me, there was a young fellow (late teens or early 20s) running before me and being tackled by a gang of fellows his age. They started hitting and punching him mercilessly. At this point in my life, my spontaneous response to immediate danger was (and still is) to go into mantra mode which reduces my thoughts to one and, from one, into the awesome STILLNESS. As if guided by a higher power, I calmly walked into the melee and simply asked: "What are you guys doing?" Stunned by the unexpected intervention, they stopped pummeling the kid briefly and just stared at me in a somewhat shocked state as if I were a creature from outer space. Fortunately, the kid being beaten had the presence of mind to take advantage of the situation, get up, and run into the bar just across the street. At that point, my meditation buddy Lenny (who was in the same age range as this group and was also a holder of a black belt in karate) came out of the bar with the kid to see what was going on. The gang members recognized him immediately since he was a respected member of the community and he knew all of the parties involved since they were all from the neighborhood and several of them were his martial arts students. Without going into details, the issue was resolved amicably (free street-life group therapy session ) and Lenny warned them of "consequences" if they continued to bother that kid. Surprisingly, after "group therapy", they all (including the kid) walked away laughing at the stupid incident that had triggered all of this.

I could have picked other stories but this one came to mind first probably because, despite the initial violence, it had such a happy ending and I felt inclined to end this on a positive note as opposed to a tragic note.

People don't realize the power inherent in all when one surrenders to the STILLNESS as it unerringly guides one in the best interests of all. That "higher power" can overcome literally anything. Was it a "coincidence" that I walked by at that precise moment? Was it a coincidence that the open bar was right across the street? Was it a coincidence that my black-belt meditation buddy happened to be there at the time? Somehow, when one surrenders, all the forces needed to address a given situation somehow "mysteriously" come into play. When one attunes to that higher power, anything is possible and one "knows without thinking" how best to proceed.

Lastly, I will end this post with one of my favorite Biblical interventions where Jesus reportedly calmed a raging mob with a few simple words: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

P.S. Feel free to share any experiences where any of you have intervened in potentially dangerous situations where some one was being harmed. Actions speak louder than words. "I did" or "I do" is much more impressive (at least to me) than "I would" and merely quoting lots of Biblical passages. Talk is nice .... but ..... (need I say more).

[BigJohn]

In my area, shoplifting is pandemic. I am sometimes amazed at some of the things that come out of my mouth when I see people stealing. Even my actions are not predictable.

But like you mentioned, as for me, a tell tale mark is a stillness, a quietness in thought.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Of course, I agree with what you wrote. However, without mentioning names (not you ), I will raise a related question.

I agree its very easy to quote high sound bytes than to actually practice it .

Your doubts about the poor practice of spiritual teachings are not misplaced. And your emphasis on actions besides thoughts and speeches is absolutely correct.

Personally I have not come across a situation of life and death in front of me where I made exclusive difference or there is something sensational about it. In fact physical fighting may be my weaker point. I also dont have formal weapon use training also (India has weapon control unlike USA). But considering the fact that we ignored the divine message (embedded in Gita in war zone) of fighting against aggressors/injustice and suffered terribly almost 1000 years , I would try to improve on that count .

Also I dont have any magic wand or spiritual aura through which some miraculous things may happen.

But I can realize that with such nice talk it gradually gets into practice and its practice really impacts the overall experience in long run in my personal experience and the experience of others who come in our contact.

I have been part of the activities/movement inspired and guided by philosopher activist Rev Pandurang Shastri Athavale's public lectures since almost 30+ years . Such activities have had a tremendous positive influence on all involved. Such activities are pure voluntary funded by participants for themselves only (meaning I take care of expenses for my own activity with my time and energy) . Donor-donee relationship is rare (which mitigates the negative influences of donor's ego). Activities are in absolute equality setting (meaning while we not denigrate degrade or demean the person having higher social status by virtue of learning , money , power , name ,fame etc but certainly no special preferential treatment is given merely due to higher social status) . People of higher status are respected for their achievements but are discouraged if they show any negative tendencies or claim preferences due to their higher status. The thumb rule here is that God is our sleeping & silent partner and good people share fruits of partnership. Now God being God is never going to claim His rewards . He would feel amply rewarded if we act purely on the basis of Love without any personal consideration far or remote . This is only possible when we meet others not as others but out of tremendous love that other is not other but your divine brother. So if we spend some money ,time and energy behind such activities voluntarily without any external audit, lure or threats sheerly out of love , our offering to God is accepted.

So all participants in such activities are regular households with day to day mundane issues of money, power, status, livelihood, relationships, children, parents etc . Many of whom i have seen have been from very humble settings , yet their commitment to the cause has been amazing . Despite their meagre earning and tremendous difficulties in life , their participation in activities have been amazing with their own time and money. By that standard I am very gifted and blessed child (and there are many such blessed souls also participating in such activities) . I have had the occasion to see 20+ countries across North America,West Europe,Far East Asia, South East Asia , West Asia as part of my work in ERP technology . The people with whom I have worked and interacted in general have very happy .

So the results of such activities (of which I am a very small foot soldier) have been profound .Here are some the examples
1. Reducing alcoholism among certain communities
2. Inspiring youth for creative constructive activities
3. plantation , nurturing and growing plant to full tree
4. bridging gaps between communities
5. disaster relief at times of flood/cyclones/pandemic
6. Increasing water levels through well recharge
7. Collective farming
8. Organizing sports / cultural activities
The list can be quite big and i may not know also many things (because propaganda of good work done is not encouraged for spiritual reasons. One has to see and do it for oneself) .

If you look at the challenges of the India & world , all these may look miniscule. But if u see it from the humble settings in which such activities started and sustained without any formal govt support , it is humongous.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

P.S. Talk is nice .... but ..... (need I say more).

Certainly nice talks has to commensurate the actions . Many in the world have done so . I myself is a work in progress and lot need to improve personally. But many a times in real world nice talks serves as goal posts and if in reality if my situation improves even slightly with this nice talks , its great despite having glaring gap between ideal and real . God still favors such seeker who is genuine and sincere in his seeking.