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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #21  
Old 22-09-2020, 04:57 PM
janielee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
' Right Conduct is Essential to Buddhism '

You could say that applies to all belief systems, but the problem is what is right to some is wrong to others so it's not straight cut.

I know very little about Chogyam Thungpa's behaviour except what I have read.
As JL said previously His Teachings are exceptional, can we seperate the Person from His/Her Teachings ? I think it's possible.

Whoever allowed Him to act as He did is as much to blame as He himself. He could never have carried on with His abuse etc: without others aiding and abetting.

Has anyone thought as I personally do is that He was Mentally ill and Alcohol made it worse. He also said that He was abused by His Teacher as a Youngster, that in itself wouldn't have helped. He obviously had problems and should have been given Medical help which might have changed His life for the better, who knows....

sky123,

I think it was the son that had the issues, not Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche? The latter was partial to alcohol and women.

JL
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  #22  
Old 22-09-2020, 05:02 PM
sky sky is offline
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[quote=janielee]sky123,

I think it was the son that had the issues, not Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche? The latter was partial to alcohol and women.



Maybe I've got it wrong based on what I read, I honestly didn't know He had a Son...

I will have a look around, thanks JL, an interesting NORMAL Family with its ups and downs....
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  #23  
Old 22-09-2020, 05:11 PM
janielee
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Yes, I believe his son did wrongs.
I don't know where the organization stands but that was harmful and wrong.
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  #24  
Old 22-09-2020, 05:24 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
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I myself love guru's and teachers. Krishnamurti, Ram Das, Tolle, Mooji, Bodhidhama, Jesus, Buddha, Merton, Watts, Castaneda, Henepola Gunaratana, Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Lao-Tzu, Rumi, Bede Griffith, and thousands more.... Plato and Socrates...Gerome Ragni and James Rado and music by Galt MacDermot, I think everyone is basically a guru and teacher.... everyone says something..... so is attempting to teach or project something....

Love how Plato's allegory of the cave illustrates so many spiritual truths.

Teachers and guru's and anyone really who harms others I am not fond of. Anything that leads to harm I am not fond of, so my own ego as well. But then we are to love everyone unconditionally. Even those who harm us or wish us harm. Love those who say things against us. But then obviously we should stop harm if we can or speak against it.

We are all god, every single person. There are mechanisms in place to deal with those who harm. Karma and what not. I was just reading in Journey of Souls about those who do serious harm to others don't even return to the main astral realms.... they are kept separate and almost immediately return to earth to suffer abuse themselves.

Even the smallest thing, to say something mean to or about another, can have serious repercussions. But then the smallest act of love and kindness, can also have a huge affect. As Jesus said, to even think something bad about another is a sin. But then as Buddha and Jesus said, it's about ignorance. We don't do bad because we are bad, we do it out of ignorance. Not knowing better. If everyone knew the vast implications of bad thoughts towards others, no one would continue to do such things.
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  #25  
Old 22-09-2020, 06:10 PM
Phaelyn Phaelyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
He also said that He was abused by His Teacher as a Youngster,

Yes typically those who abuse were abused themselves. A very sad cycle. But then others are able to overcome abuse and not repeat it. Seems like the main cause is a lack of compassion and empathy. To know in some real way, that person is the same as me, is me in a sense. To give others the same respect I would want. To treat others how I would wish to be treated. To do unto others as I would wish done to myself. To love everyone really. To do no harm to myself or others. To not cause suffering of any form in others or myself.

I think criticizing teachers or teachings others are fond of seems to harm them in some way. Causes a negative or defensive response. Teaching is a tricky business as people are very attached to their beliefs. It's not even just teaching, saying anything can set someone off. You know what's funny I realized the other day, most teachers are not in environments where there is any feedback like in a forum like this. Guru's speak, those before them listen. It's never like someone stands up, "oh I disagree with that statement!" If someone disagreed with a teacher, they would not go to hear them in the first place.

It's actually amazing how defensive we can be to the thoughts or beliefs or statements of others. I have a friend who is a musician, and the slightest comment about a song he wrote sets him off. Like if I said, oh the bass is too loud in that.... boom he's angry. That one guru, Baba Hari Dass took a vow of silence. He doesn't speak. That would eliminate a lot of conflict situations.

In the search for zero conflict with others in life, one learns a lot of things. One would be never contradict another's statements. There is a whole science behind speaking with others in such a way to not go into a conflict situation. There is a last three words rule. You feed back to to them the last words or ideas they said to you. Subconsciously, this makes them think you are in agreement with them. Detectives use these techniques when interrogating suspects. Councilors know of and use these techniques. Even scientists say, if you agree with portions of what someone just said, they will be more receptive to statements that are not in tune with their own.

But yea the easiest way to avoid conflict, just nod and agree. Have no thoughts or opinions or beliefs. But then to me, this is living zen. Don't go into the thought stream or "box of ideas." When we do, conflict appears. My beliefs verses yours. Krishnamurti talked about that as well.

This now is what it is. Why bring in the whole mental component? Just simple awareness and emptiness, blue sky, green grass, sunlight, stars....fresh air...other souls running around in bodies....just peace and love
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  #26  
Old 22-09-2020, 06:12 PM
janielee
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And that is what is called Buddhism - lite.

Useless, going along with, unable to handle conflict, unclear of the inner meanings of the Saints.

Hence why Chogyam Trungpa and the HuangPo's words are essential -

Without seated meditation practice, in conjunction with the rest of the Eightfold Path, there is no real, genuine Buddhist practice in play.


JL
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  #27  
Old 22-09-2020, 06:53 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaelyn
Yes typically those who abuse were abused themselves. A very sad cycle. But then others are able to overcome abuse and not repeat it. Seems like the main cause is a lack of compassion and empathy. To know in some real way, that person is the same as me, is me in a sense. To give others the same respect I would want. To treat others how I would wish to be treated. To do unto others as I would wish done to myself. To love everyone really. To do no harm to myself or others. To not cause suffering of any form in others or myself.

I think criticizing teachers or teachings others are fond of seems to harm them in some way. Causes a negative or defensive response. Teaching is a tricky business as people are very attached to their beliefs. It's not even just teaching, saying anything can set someone off. You know what's funny I realized the other day, most teachers are not in environments where there is any feedback like in a forum like this. Guru's speak, those before them listen. It's never like someone stands up, "oh I disagree with that statement!" If someone disagreed with a teacher, they would not go to hear them in the first place.

It's actually amazing how defensive we can be to the thoughts or beliefs or statements of others. I have a friend who is a musician, and the slightest comment about a song he wrote sets him off. Like if I said, oh the bass is too loud in that.... boom he's angry. That one guru, Baba Hari Dass took a vow of silence. He doesn't speak. That would eliminate a lot of conflict situations.

In the search for zero conflict with others in life, one learns a lot of things. One would be never contradict another's statements. There is a whole science behind speaking with others in such a way to not go into a conflict situation. There is a last three words rule. You feed back to to them the last words or ideas they said to you. Subconsciously, this makes them think you are in agreement with them. Detectives use these techniques when interrogating suspects. Councilors know of and use these techniques. Even scientists say, if you agree with portions of what someone just said, they will be more receptive to statements that are not in tune with their own.

But yea the easiest way to avoid conflict, just nod and agree. Have no thoughts or opinions or beliefs. But then to me, this is living zen. Don't go into the thought stream or "box of ideas." When we do, conflict appears. My beliefs verses yours. Krishnamurti talked about that as well.

This now is what it is. Why bring in the whole mental component? Just simple awareness and emptiness, blue sky, green grass, sunlight, stars....fresh air...other souls running around in bodies....just peace and love




' The easiest way to avoid conflict, just nod and agree. Have no thoughts or opinions or beliefs. '


But in real life that wouldn't work and it is definitely not what Buddha taught.
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  #28  
Old 22-09-2020, 09:45 PM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
Trungpa Rinpoche's teachings are some of the best, and stand on their own.
This is my view also. He could not have written/spoken the way he did had he not studied and walked the whole path, realized ‘Emptiness/Shunyata’, Nonduality etc. etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Maybe I've got it wrong based on what I read, I honestly didn't know He had a Son...
Trungpa Sr. had his problems, but a lot of talk is also based on ill intended moral grandstanding gossip to embellish the self imo.....

I have no idea what Trungpa Jr. (accused of sexual misconduct) has written ....


*

The preaching:

When the self believes that it is separate from others, then from this self-centeredness the negative emotion (poison) of pride arises in which one arrogantly believes oneself to be in some way better than others.

And from here also arises the belief that we only believe and do the desirable good things, and those undesirable bad things are what others believe in and do. Heh.
One would not think so, but it seems ego-pride does get that childish …

As long as we believe ourselves to be superior to others, it is impossible to learn from others like ……, ……, …., ….., well, the list becomes endless really …. heh.

In the end - we all alone - are "answerable to God” – or it is what we alone do “in the face of Totality” that counts and within this relative, dual good/bad realm/dimension, we learn from everyone and everything if we are open to it ….



*

Last edited by sentient : 22-09-2020 at 11:03 PM.
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  #29  
Old 23-09-2020, 03:30 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janielee
To be that Crusader, you would first want to be a real practicing Buddhist of realization, in my opinion. If you are not, you risk throwing good teachings and realities under the rug, as you are blinded by the hate and disgust towards teachings and teachers you dislike.


It's not the teachings that concern me, and it's not like I imagine any teacher as a special person, so like everyone and anyone, I assess credibility on the degree of integrity a person demonstrates. If they profess to to a status based on Buddhism, then a basic adherence to sila principles is required, which excludes intoxication and sexual misconduct.


Chodron is Trungpa's protege and member of the sangha, which is good, because she seems to have some integrity, but she resigned her post as a teacher because they appointed a known rapist to the trust.


Quote:
Trungpa Rinpoche's teachings are some of the best, and stand on their own.


He can't walk the talk, so to me, it's a lot of empty words.


Quote:
Many schools are also not as straight laced as the way you like it, Gem.


I can only suggest that if people want go to a school or get involved a the sangha, just make sure sila is the founding principle of the sangha.

Quote:
For example, you choosing whether to chant or meditate shows how loose aversions and preferences can run in your school. The presence of a genuinely realized teacher is a boon for any true student.


At my school, emphasis is placed on mindful equanimity, so we try to be aware of our adverse/craven reactivity as it arises and minimise it as best we can.

To me a person is a person, and a teacher has a role which is respectable, but on what grounds is it respectable?

1) The teacher is giving all their time to the school for the benefit of the meditators expecting nothing in return. That's dana, and Generosity is respectable.

2) To be a teacher, your sila has to be impeccable and it takes many years to meet to meet the position's requirements. Such commitment is respectable.


Trungpas gets sex from his students and becomes rich from their kind donations - no dana. He gets intoxicated and perpetrates sexual misconduct - no Sila. His Trustees are degenerate and people get harmed in the school. No refuge.


Their respecrt is based on that delusion that he's a special enlightened person, and he took advantage of that. Their trust is misplaced and they take refuge where they are taken advantage of.


Quote:
I can't speak to what happened to Trungpa's school after his death,




It's reliably documented - and that's only what was publically told. They were all up to mischief while he was alive, and after he died, and since they just appointed a rapist to the trust, it's reaonable to suspect something fishy is still going on today.


Quote:
but Ryan's distaste of Gurus was clear years ago - as was yours. I agree that we don't want people getting harmed in the pursuit of religion.


If you don't want people to get harmed, don't promote Trungpa.

I find the whole guru parade to be pretentious on the whole whole, but there are good sorts in the spiritual teacher trade. You just have be very discerning, and my tip is, ensure they are founded securely in principles of sila... (and if the trust re-appoints a rapist whom they know to the trust... well, screw that).

Quote:
Doesn't make Trungpa Rinpoche teaching's wrong


He can't walk the talk, so what he says is worthless. Chodron resigned because any reasonable person wouldn't stand for it.The rest of them support the rapist's appointment... so, I think maybe there might more than one sex fiend in the bunch?

Quote:
and Krishnamurti had some interesting perspectives -- don't listen to anyone, while many bowed at his feet and idolized his teachings. It's all perspective and real life experience does count, in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't consider your taste and approach of Buddhism to be my approach or preference, but thank you for your practice.

JL


I guess people who admire Trungpa's approach would have a hard time with mine which is ethically founded. You'd be safe enough in a school like mine (but still have to be very discerning). The students aren't sexed even if they wanted it, and because we run on dana, 100% of your donations will be utilised for the benefit of future meditators.
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Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
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  #30  
Old 23-09-2020, 03:43 AM
sentient sentient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
It's not the teachings that concern me, and it's not like I imagine any teacher as a special person, so like everyone and anyone, I assess credibility on the degree of integrity a person demonstrates. If they profess to to a status based on Buddhism, then a basic adherence to principles is required, which includes intoxication and no sexual misconduct, and considering Trungpa is a drunkard philandered and all nature of sexual misconduct has been and is characteristic of his school, the sangha and the school is unworthy of refuge.

On the other hand, Chodron is Trungpa's protege and member of the sangha, which is good, because she seems to have some integrity, but she resigned her post as a teacher because they appointed a known rapist to the trust. Sounds pretty bad to me... just because it is actually deplorable.


I can only suggest that if people want go to a school or get involved with the sangha, just make sila is the founding principle of the sangh.

At my school, emphasis is placed on mindful equanimity, so preferences are OK, but we try to be aware of our adverse and craven reactivity and minimise it as best we can.

To me a person is a person, and a teacher has a role which is respectable, but on what grounds is it respectable?

1) The teacher is giving all their time to the school for the benefit of the meditators expecting nothing in return. That's dana, and Generosity is respectable.

2) To be a teacher, your sila has to be impeccable and it takes many years to meet to to position's requirements. Such commitment is respectable.

In Trungpas case, he gets sex from his students and becomes rich from their kind donations - no dana. He gets intoxicated and perpetrated sexual misconduct - no Sila. The isn't anything real world that is respectable. People have delusion that he's a special enlightened master, and their respecrt is based on that delusion, their trust is misplaces, they take refuge where they are taken advantage of, and are harmed. They are fooled by the 'enlightened master' performance, just like Chodron was, and it the conditions for harm arise because it not founded on principles of sila.

Oh they were diddling the kiddies while he was alive, and after he died, and since they just appointed a rapist to the trust, it's reaonable to suspect something fishy is still going on today.

If you don;t want people to get harmed, don't promote Trungpa.

I find the whole guru parade to be pretentious pretentious on the whole whole, but there are good sorts in the spiritual teacher trade. You just have be very discerning, and my tip is, ensure they are founded securely in the principe of sila... and if the trust appoints a rapist whom they know to the trust... well, screw that.

He can't walk the talk, so what he says is worthless. It has all the hallmarks of snowjob. He's a drunk philanderer who take a fortune from kind donations and all nature of atrocity is committed in his school. People making informed decisions will not get involved with that. Chodron resigned because any reasonable person wouldn't stand for it.The rest of them support the rapist's appointment... so, I think maybe there might more than one sex fiend in the bunch?

I guess people who admire Trungpa's approach would have a hard time with mine, but you'd at least be safe at a school like mine. The students aren't sexed even if they want it, and because we practice dana, your donations will 100% utilised for the benefit of future meditation students.

I'm sure you are being heard Gem.

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