Deep dive on 4 Noble Truth philosphy

[Gem]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Thanks. It sounds like: master your emotions, don't let emotions control you.

It does sound like that, and it is not being controlled by emotion, but I'm not too sure if that necessarily implies you control them, so I think 'mastering' them might be a more nuanced allusion.

[Gem]

(NT1)


It's obviously true: There is suffering.


We know it is true because we experience it. But we probably do not understand it very well. We typically think discomfort is the cause of suffering - physical pain and emotional trauma. In the belief that our adverse experiences cause us to suffer, we become victims of circumstance. We are under the impression that the world, internally and externally, acts upon us, so we equally react through the law of cause and effect.

I'm trying to speak directly (not abstractly) so the immediate actuality can be noticed, and the only way to understand is to notice how this describes the way you suffer. Not the abstract truth 'there is suffering', but the direct truth 'this is suffering'.

Meditation is knowing in the completely subjective sense the truth of yourself. Not the imaginary self who will get enlightened in the future, but the way you actually are. It's not a function of trying to be someone who is trying to get something. It is the complete cessation of that - to notice and know 'this is what it's like'.

If you sit formally for an hour or 45 minutes (I suggest you do) - sit still and remain aware of what it feels like to breathe is perfectly fine - you'll start to notice many things about yourself which you have hitherto overlooked. It is not to make the breath special by doing special breathing or fancy visualisation. It's just being consciously aware of what the breath already feels like, and you'll notice that in paying attention to find out what it feels like exactly, you have already stopped.

Most meditation teachers are trying to make to you do something, but it's actually not possible to reach someone how to meditate. No one can teach you how to feel what your breathing is like because you already know how to do that. Indeed, if you are doing something to meditate I would only suggest stop doing that, and It follows logically that if you stop, that is 'stillness'.

You alone discern if it adds up, makes sense, seems reasonable, has logic - and do the experiment to see if it is/isn't true.

[sky]

"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi....118.than.html

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by Gem

The fundamental premises of Buddhist philosophy are the 4 Noble Truths (4NT):

• There is suffering
• Suffering has a cause
• Suffering can be resolved
• There is a way to resolve suffering

The principle of 'the path' is to self-examine to discover the ways in which the 4NT are true in your own life. As such, the 4NT aren't to be considered as objectively true. These premises really only imply that it is possible to develop the purely subjective understanding or wisdom that enables resolution.

That sets the basis for the thread. I'm going to proceed with future posts in progressive steps so the thread can be followed in an orderly way. It could be an idea to start a daily meditation schedule and check in here to see what I say and contribute from your practice insights. If not, I still suggest taking a minute or so of breath awareness before reading or posting on the thread, and perhaps include 10 seconds of metta if you are genuinely inclined. That would benefit us all.

An interesting contemplation if related to actual life experience. In my view ...

Cause of suffering

I have not studied Buddhism but going by ‘an is where is, life experienced basis’, we may perhaps say that suffering is the thought indulged amplification of belied expectation (pain), which in turn is the non-recognition of the cyclic nature of manifested duality.

Recognition

Once we recognise that the external is fleeting as also cyclic, we may voluntarily choose to internalise our attention looking for eternal joy. Of course, since mind body has a limited life span, to start with ‘eternal’ would imply our life span ... until later we discover that we are not the limited mind body.

Accepting then that right here this* (*mind body) is ensouled by us and therefore for all practical purposes is who we are at this moment, we may decide to begin by exiting all those urgings which have to do with the external ephemeral. Essentially, thoughts nurturing fears & desires rooted in attachment. 99% goes away!

The method

The shift, so to speak, needs to be in thought, word & deed. As such, as of my own life experience, what worked was that we pick any negativity ... say greed and then by constant watchfulness* (* we look at our thought patterns every hour or so), attempt correction. There is oscillation owing to past momentum but we simply see it for what it is, playing out like waves and slowly ebbing. In time, we no longer have an affinity for that desire. Then we pick up the next desire/ fear, both being mirror images actually ...

The void within brought about by choosing to drop the negative urge seems to somewhat cleanse our being, allowing divine magnetism to manifest.

Whether we call this constant watchfulness alertness or contemplation or meditation, essentially our choosing to prioritise connecting with our own divinity within paves the way for further progress. Silence & stillness become our ever present orientation.

There is no formal or ritualised practice involved, since we voluntarily choose to surrender/ align this* (*mind body) to That that is within. Our choice is itself the way. Everything else is enabled automatically. Over time, we become relatively more loving, mindful, blissful, compassionate, embracing purity and cognisant to subtler vibrations within.

This is what worked (still working) for me. Of course, there may be many paths, all finally getting to the roots.

I don’t know if this is in consonance with Buddhist teachings. If this thread is focused solely on Buddhist scriptures, please ignore my post.

[sentient]

Some thoughts on the 4 ...

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

An interesting contemplation if related to actual life experience. In my view ...

A pain in the ars*/neck or a wound that just won’t ever heal unless or until we let go, surrender and take “Emptiness as a Refuge".

Becauuuuuse, when we take any ‘form reality’ as our only refuge, it doesn’t matter how idealistically lofty it is, how dualistically rightfully righteous its ‘form’, we are still talking about conventional reality.

Which is why I guess:
https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_a...rance-reality/

When someone seeks to understand Buddhism, where should that person start: With the meaning of taking refuge in the three jewels? With the four noble truths?
The Dalai Lama, when asked this question, suggested that for many in the West today, understanding the two truths, conventional truth and ultimate truth, is the best place to start.

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

Cause of suffering

I have not studied Buddhism but going by ‘an is where is, life experienced basis’, we may perhaps say that suffering is the thought indulged amplification of belied expectation (pain), which in turn is the non-recognition of the cyclic nature of manifested duality.

Well, from a nondual experience point of view, a belief in an intrinsically, independently existing separate-self-identity is the cause of endless struggle and unsatisfactoriness & pain aaaand the rest of the delusions just follow.

To realize “Emptiness” Thich Nhat Hanh addresses this with his talks about “interbeing.”
https://www.garrisoninstitute.org/bl...of-interbeing/

That “Dependent Arising or Dependent Origination” seems to be the Hinayana analytical approach. Others might just shift into direct inner knowing or “seeing” what might also be expressed as “Space-like Samadhi”.
Somebody somewhere (cannot remember where) – said, that Buddha himself had said that Space is the best example of Emptiness.

I am also assuming that Dalai Lama suggested the two truths as a starting point, because it spells out where the Buddhist path is leading to.

We can practice mindfulness with the end goal of just “taming the monkey, or the wild horse” and becoming an integrated ego by integrating “thought, word & deed” – but all that leads to ‘intent’.

If it doesn’t it will be like worshipping method (only) and without the ‘Wisdom of Emptiness’ – it is like what one Buddhist nun had said … like a bird with only one functional wing cannot fly, it just flaps on one spot in circles. Talk about a hamster’s wheel or cyclical existence and not recognizing that method is just one wing.
But of course here conventionally we have to talk about the ‘right method’ as the other wing. Aaaaaaand these 'right methods' change when we move from Hinayana to Mahayana to Vajrayana.

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

Cause of suffering

I have not studied Buddhism but going by ‘an is where is, life experienced basis’, we may perhaps say that suffering is the thought indulged amplification of belied expectation (pain), which in turn is the non-recognition of the cyclic nature of manifested duality.

Recognition

Once we recognise that the external is fleeting as also cyclic, we may voluntarily choose to internalise our attention looking for eternal joy. Of course, since mind body has a limited life span, to start with ‘eternal’ would imply our life span ... until later we discover that we are not the limited mind body.

Accepting then that right here this* (*mind body) is ensouled by us and therefore for all practical purposes is who we are at this moment, we may decide to begin by exiting all those urgings which have to do with the external ephemeral. Essentially, thoughts nurturing fears & desires rooted in attachment. 99% goes away!

The method

The shift, so to speak, needs to be in thought, word & deed. As such, as of my own life experience, what worked was that we pick any negativity ... say greed and then by constant watchfulness* (* we look at our thought patterns every hour or so), attempt correction. There is oscillation owing to past momentum but we simply see it for what it is, playing out like waves and slowly ebbing. In time, we no longer have an affinity for that desire. Then we pick up the next desire/ fear, both being mirror images actually ...

The void within brought about by choosing to drop the negative urge seems to somewhat cleanse our being, allowing divine magnetism to manifest.

Whether we call this constant watchfulness alertness or contemplation or meditation, essentially our choosing to prioritise connecting with our own divinity within paves the way for further progress. Silence & stillness become our ever present orientation.

There is no formal or ritualised practice involved, since we voluntarily choose to surrender/ align this* (*mind body) to That that is within. Our choice is itself the way. Everything else is enabled automatically. Over time, we become relatively more loving, mindful, blissful, compassionate, embracing purity and cognisant to subtler vibrations within.

This is what worked (still working) for me. Of course, there may be many paths, all finally getting to the roots.

I don’t know if this is in consonance with Buddhist teachings. If this thread is focused solely on Buddhist scriptures, please ignore my post.

*

[sentient]

Dalai Lama’s take on Hinayana, Mahayana and Tantra (Fearsome Deities, Consort Practice etc.)
from Tibetan Buddhist point of view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-UH1uaPEFI

On God, Dependent origination , Interdependency, Two Truths ….. :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2UsrW4P13U

*

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

An interesting contemplation if related to actual life experience. In my view ...

Indeed. It's always related to real-lived experience.

Cause of suffering

I have not studied Buddhism but going by ‘an is where is, life experienced basis’, we may perhaps say that suffering is the thought indulged amplification of belied expectation (pain), which in turn is the non-recognition of the cyclic nature of manifested duality.

That makes sense in a Buddhist context since 'ignorance' is said to be the underpinning of suffering - implied by non-recognition - and the process of insight said to be 'the way out of suffering' - Mainly the recognition of 'impermanence'

Recognition

Once we recognise that the external is fleeting as also cyclic, we may voluntarily choose to internalise our attention looking for eternal joy. Of course, since mind body has a limited life span, to start with ‘eternal’ would imply our life span ... until later we discover that we are not the limited mind body.

Accepting then that right here this* (*mind body) is ensouled by us and therefore for all practical purposes is who we are at this moment, we may decide to begin by exiting all those urgings which have to do with the external ephemeral. Essentially, thoughts nurturing fears & desires rooted in attachment. 99% goes away!

Yes. By self-awareness I mean conscious awareness of what the mind is doing with respect to the body, and vice versa. IOW, you are conscious of what you do as opposed to 'know not what they do'.


'Urges' is a good word that implies voilition incited by the dynamic between aversion and desire. Indeed, volition could be regarded as any urge to move the mind.

The method

The shift, so to speak, needs to be in thought, word & deed. As such, as of my own life experience, what worked was that we pick any negativity ... say greed and then by constant watchfulness* (* we look at our thought patterns every hour or so), attempt correction.

Makes sense, and lines up with the Buddhist concept of 'right effort'

There is oscillation owing to past momentum but we simply see it for what it is, playing out like waves and slowly ebbing. In time, we no longer have an affinity for that desire. Then we pick up the next desire/ fear, both being mirror images actually ...

Yes. That mirror is described as 'craving' in the lexicon, which refers to the inseparable dynamic of aversion (we could say fear) and desire...

The void within brought about by choosing to drop the negative urge seems to somewhat cleanse our being, allowing divine magnetism to manifest.

Whether we call this constant watchfulness alertness or contemplation or meditation, essentially our choosing to prioritise connecting with our own divinity within paves the way for further progress. Silence & stillness become our ever present orientation.

There is no formal or ritualised practice involved, since we voluntarily choose to surrender/ align this* (*mind body) to That that is within. Our choice is itself the way. Everything else is enabled automatically. Over time, we become relatively more loving, mindful, blissful, compassionate, embracing purity and cognisant to subtler vibrations within.

If the fundamentals are understood, you can formalise a method based on the fundamentals, but if you don't understand the fundamentals, you can't know 'how to meditate.


The meditation in Buddhism (mindfulness) is not well understoood by its teachers, so there's a lot of fluff like controlled breathing, intentional belly breaths, counting breaths, adding a visulaisation, verbalisation etc etc. These are just are 'add-ons'. Not fundamentals. The fundamental is, like, be conscious of the real-lived experience, as it already happens to be, in just the way it is experienced by you.

This is what worked (still working) for me. Of course, there may be many paths, all finally getting to the roots.

There is law of nature - Eg, all experience is impermanent - so I'm not a fan of the 'many paths' idea. I'm a fan of universal truth. People just persue their desire into the future, and they say, But my desire is enlightenment as if that's noble without realising they have fabricated an imaginary enlightenment to persue through time - because how do 'you' keep living if the force that moves you from the past to the future ceases?

I don’t know if this is in consonance with Buddhist teachings. If this thread is focused solely on Buddhist scriptures, please ignore my post.

Yes, it it is congruent and quite closely paraphrases fundamental Buddhist concepts. It's nothing to do with scripture. Like you say, it's about the direct and irrevocable insight into the actual life experience. There are no good reasons to cut and paste scripture - people can google it themselves anyway.

[Gem]

There is suffering.



People question their Gods. If God is good why does He allow suffering? In Buddhism there's no God. No worship. It is yourself that allows suffering. You can't shirk responsibility by blaming a 'sky daddy'. According to Buddhist philosophy, you are 100% responsible for your own suffering.

It is not the glorification of Buddha. It is not about robes and shaven heads and... reverence. All that is a mere aside. If Buddhism vanished tonight, and the teachers all died, the sun would still rise tomorrow morning.

Buddhism is predicated on the truth - there is suffering. No matter how young, old, religious or none, tradition, sex, or any other individual quality. The virtues that transcend the identity are relevant. truthfulness is relevant. Generosity is relevant. Determination, persistence, diligence - all relevant.

[sky]

Buddha taught that in life there is ' Dukkha ' ( 1st Noble Truth ) some use the word ' Suffering ' but when you think of suffering you don't included ' Happiness ' they seems to be two opposites but in Buddhism Happiness is also Dukkha because anything that is not permanent and subject to change is Dukkha so Happiness is also Dukkha, because it is not permanent.

In life there is Dukkha is what Buddha taught....

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

There is suffering.



People question their Gods. If God is good why does He allow suffering? In Buddhism there's no God. No worship. It is yourself that allows suffering. You can't shirk responsibility by blaming a 'sky daddy'. According to Buddhist philosophy, you are 100% responsible for your own suffering.

It is not the glorification of Buddha. It is not about robes and shaven heads and... reverence. All that is a mere aside. If Buddhism vanished tonight, and the teachers all died, the sun would still rise tomorrow morning.

Buddhism is predicated on the truth - there is suffering. No matter how young, old, religious or none, tradition, sex, or any other individual quality. The virtues that transcend the identity are relevant. truthfulness is relevant. Generosity is relevant. Determination, persistence, diligence - all relevant.

In Buddhism they would use Dukkha rather than Suffering, hence.... There is Dukkha.