I wanna know what love is....

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Elfin

But the truth is..while ever there are males and females on this earth then babies will continue to be born... Because that is "human" nature / instinct.

Yes, but ... getting back to the title of this thread ... what you say here then brings up the (complicated to be sure!) 'issue' of what 'love' really requires of us in that case, doesn't it? Are you really content continuing to 'finesse' the issue of what love requires of us as our consciousness expands, IOW are you content to simply continue and have others continue to just 'love' what they do the way at present? From my book:

Because most would-be health, education and welfare providers have concentrated on giving, and most would‑be health, education and welfare seekers have concentrated on receiving, what increases or provides for the increase of instinctual pleasure and gratification, instead of augmenting Creativity they have basically just helped increase the number of human organs and amount of human creature-security, creature-comfort, creature-pleasure, and creature-aggrandizement on the planet. And this but temporarily, because the exponentially increasing wave of instinctual activity they have thereby engendered now runs grossly amuck—our biological and cultural ecosystem has, as a result of their choices, been cannibalized and polluted to the point where Life on earth is inexorably, day-by-day becoming an ever more competitive, narrow self-interest dominated, desperation tinged, criminally exploited and chaotic scramble for instinctual perks in ever more barren and septic environs for a greater and greater proportion of those present.

What lies ahead is truly horrendous. Because we have, to such a great extent, both been seduced by and pandered to the urges of instinct, at least as many people will die from starvation, sickness, negligence or violence, inflicted either by fellow species members or Nature at large, in the next century as were alive at the beginning of this one. And that’s only the manifest tip of the iceberg. Ravaging angst will concomitantly wreak much more pernicious havoc in the realm of the soul.

Originally Posted by davidsun

Yes, but ... getting back to the title of this thread ... what you say here then brings up the (complicated to be sure!) 'issue' of what 'love' really requires of us in that case, doesn't it? Are you really content continuing to 'finesse' the issue of what love requires of us as our consciousness expands, IOW are you content to simply continue and have others continue to just 'love' what they do the way at present? From my book:

Because most would-be health, education and welfare providers have concentrated on giving, and most would‑be health, education and welfare seekers have concentrated on receiving, what increases or provides for the increase of instinctual pleasure and gratification, instead of augmenting Creativity they have basically just helped increase the number of human organs and amount of human creature-security, creature-comfort, creature-pleasure, and creature-aggrandizement on the planet. And this but temporarily, because the exponentially increasing wave of instinctual activity they have thereby engendered now runs grossly amuck—our biological and cultural ecosystem has, as a result of their choices, been cannibalized and polluted to the point where Life on earth is inexorably, day-by-day becoming an ever more competitive, narrow self-interest dominated, desperation tinged, criminally exploited and chaotic scramble for instinctual perks in ever more barren and septic environs for a greater and greater proportion of those present.

What lies ahead is truly horrendous. Because we have, to such a great extent, both been seduced by and pandered to the urges of instinct, at least as many people will die from starvation, sickness, negligence or violence, inflicted either by fellow species members or Nature at large, in the next century as were alive at the beginning of this one. And that’s only the manifest tip of the iceberg. Ravaging angst will concomitantly wreak much more pernicious havoc in the realm of the soul.

Nine of it matters does it though? Because with all due respect ( and it IS with respect I speak) ..what can you or I do about any of it????...we just have to accept.. which can be hard. I understand , I really do but if it was just you and I against the whole of the world ... Indeed the whole of existence what chance would we stand? And trust me... If that was even remotely possible I'd be first in line. I think you and I share views , although my words are simple (a bit like my cooking)....I know full well that you , like myself would change the world if we could. As many would.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Elfin

None of it matters does it though?

That s a personal 'judgment' call - like the Neti-Neti philopsphy is.

Originally Posted by Elfin

with all due respect ( and it IS with respect I speak)

I 'get' and very much appreciate your respectfulness, Elfin.

Originally Posted by Elfin

..what can you or I do about any of it????...we just have to accept.. which can be hard. I understand , I really do but if it was just you and I against the whole of the world ... Indeed the whole of existence what chance would we stand?

In my book I also say: "We really have no alternative but to accept and make the best of what therefore comes our way." But the context of this statament is much larger than what you defeatistically(?) proclaim:

For Life to flower and be more fruitful, desire must be discriminatingly refined and selectively accentuated. That is, what we desire and how we go about trying to attain it must be beneficially altered by greater awareness and understanding of the unitary nature and psychospiritual dynamic of Being. To promote such occurrence, relevant truth has been repeatedly stated; and I do so again: Individually, each of us is a transient aspect of an interwoven, ongoing whole. No one, as such, continues forever, and, except in illusion, no one has, or can ever have, a separate existence of his or her own. We maximize or minimize our own essential validity and creative potency to the degree to which we do or don’t cooperate with and contribute to developments that go on around us. Of itself, selfishness goes nowhere in the end.

But mere articulation of this truth is not enough. If it was, we’d already be getting along quite well together, because it has historically been stated in ways that are both profound and eloquent. Raising consciousness and inspiring unselfish involvement aren’t accomplished that easily. Indeed, at times, they are just about impossible, for, particularly when threatened by prospect of loss, selfishness has a tendency to tighten its innately powerful grip. Those so motivated then strive even more strenuously to insure their own welfare; if for more than that, then only for their own ‘kind’ to benefit. They not only reject but often actively persecute those who openly proclaim and conscientiously walk the path of what is holistically right and fitting. Because logic would otherwise dictate that self-interest be deliberately disregarded, sometimes even totally sacrificed, for greater good to ensue, many go to all sorts of extremes to still the voice of conscience and deny comprehensive truth.

Despite warnings and guidance, people who are fearful and greedy persist in unwisdom, shortsightedly indulging themselves [note: this applies to many 'other'-world embracers as well!], at most sharing only with those at their own table, not caring about what is good for all. In so doing, they set the stage for conflict and precipitate widespread pain and suffering, for when portions of Life’s pyramid consequently crumble, as must inevitably happen because of such other-denial, the collapse affects everyone involved.

We really have no alternative but to accept and make the best of what therefore comes our way; and we will be more creative the more conscientiously we commit ourselves to such purpose. Since we are all in this together, to think one can avoid trouble and, hence, to concentrate on doing so is a futile exercise of grandiosity. Besides, extended periods of comfort and ease can leave one worse off, because problems and difficulties provide both stimulus and opportunity for development. As evidenced by the performances of a high percentage of those who are over-privileged or over-protected, creative energies tend to languish or become functionally perverted without them.

Actually, perturbing though they may be, the misfortune and misery which ultimately result from unbridled partiality are not evils to be lamented. When and as they become bad enough, by shocking us out of instinctual fantasies and destroying false hopes, they give us reason to change and set the stage for Life-improvement. Hearts are opened by sympathetic response to suffering, and enlightenment spreads as the importance of a balanced, all‑inclusive approach is then more keenly appreciated.

If you have what it takes, you will witness such process in yourself. Both egocentric and ethnocentric desire and ambition are set aside and the discipline and rigor of universal service are undertaken as and to the degree it becomes apparent that efforts towards unilateral gain are counterproductive and that the only way to better Life lies through dedication to the beneficial development, within the context of the whole, of everyone.

The most creatively consequential challenge confronting us is posed by prior conditioning and narrow mindset which both hobble and limit creative functioning ...

Originally Posted by Elfin

And trust me... If that was even remotely possible I'd be first in line. I think you and I share views , although my words are simple (a bit like my cooking)....I know full well that you , like myself would change the world if we could. As many would.

The above excerpt is from Ch.3, which lists what 'we' are up against and rhetrorically asks: "What good can we do in face of such onslaught?" The rest of the book essentially presents my 'answer' said 'question'.

Tally Ho - if you have the desire to get on such a "What 'love' requires" 'ride', Bro.

Originally Posted by davidsun

That s a personal 'judgment' call - like the Neti-Neti philopsphy is.


I 'get' and very much appreciate your respectfulness, Elfin.


In my book I also say: "We really have no alternative but to accept and make the best of what therefore comes our way." But the context of this statament is much larger than what you defeatistically(?) proclaim:

For Life to flower and be more fruitful, desire must be discriminatingly refined and selectively accentuated. That is, what we desire and how we go about trying to attain it must be beneficially altered by greater awareness and understanding of the unitary nature and psychospiritual dynamic of Being. To promote such occurrence, relevant truth has been repeatedly stated; and I do so again: Individually, each of us is a transient aspect of an interwoven, ongoing whole. No one, as such, continues forever, and, except in illusion, no one has, or can ever have, a separate existence of his or her own. We maximize or minimize our own essential validity and creative potency to the degree to which we do or don’t cooperate with and contribute to developments that go on around us. Of itself, selfishness goes nowhere in the end.

But mere articulation of this truth is not enough. If it was, we’d already be getting along quite well together, because it has historically been stated in ways that are both profound and eloquent. Raising consciousness and inspiring unselfish involvement aren’t accomplished that easily. Indeed, at times, they are just about impossible, for, particularly when threatened by prospect of loss, selfishness has a tendency to tighten its innately powerful grip. Those so motivated then strive even more strenuously to insure their own welfare; if for more than that, then only for their own ‘kind’ to benefit. They not only reject but often actively persecute those who openly proclaim and conscientiously walk the path of what is holistically right and fitting. Because logic would otherwise dictate that self-interest be deliberately disregarded, sometimes even totally sacrificed, for greater good to ensue, many go to all sorts of extremes to still the voice of conscience and deny comprehensive truth.

Despite warnings and guidance, people who are fearful and greedy persist in unwisdom, shortsightedly indulging themselves [note: this applies to many 'other'-world embracers as well!], at most sharing only with those at their own table, not caring about what is good for all. In so doing, they set the stage for conflict and precipitate widespread pain and suffering, for when portions of Life’s pyramid consequently crumble, as must inevitably happen because of such other-denial, the collapse affects everyone involved.

We really have no alternative but to accept and make the best of what therefore comes our way; and we will be more creative the more conscientiously we commit ourselves to such purpose. Since we are all in this together, to think one can avoid trouble and, hence, to concentrate on doing so is a futile exercise of grandiosity. Besides, extended periods of comfort and ease can leave one worse off, because problems and difficulties provide both stimulus and opportunity for development. As evidenced by the performances of a high percentage of those who are over-privileged or over-protected, creative energies tend to languish or become functionally perverted without them.

Actually, perturbing though they may be, the misfortune and misery which ultimately result from unbridled partiality are not evils to be lamented. When and as they become bad enough, by shocking us out of instinctual fantasies and destroying false hopes, they give us reason to change and set the stage for Life-improvement. Hearts are opened by sympathetic response to suffering, and enlightenment spreads as the importance of a balanced, all‑inclusive approach is then more keenly appreciated.

If you have what it takes, you will witness such process in yourself. Both egocentric and ethnocentric desire and ambition are set aside and the discipline and rigor of universal service are undertaken as and to the degree it becomes apparent that efforts towards unilateral gain are counterproductive and that the only way to better Life lies through dedication to the beneficial development, within the context of the whole, of everyone.

The most creatively consequential challenge confronting us is posed by prior conditioning and narrow mindset which both hobble and limit creative functioning ...

The above excerpt is from Ch.3, which lists what 'we' are up against and rhetrorically asks: "What good can we do in face of such onslaught?" The rest of the book essentially presents my 'answer' said 'question'.

Tally Ho - if you have the desire to get on such a "What 'love' requires" 'ride', Bro.

Hi Dave.... Oh sweetheart . I seriously do hold you in highest esteem. But I'm a person of simple words and I can't always get my mind around things you are saying. And that is not being dis-respectful in any way , shape or form. It's just how I am. However.... The two words I did pick up on which sent an instant message were "fearful" and " greedy"...both traits you highlighted as a negative. I can only say that I possess neither of those traits. I am never fearful in any way , shape, or form. And greed is like a swear word to me... " Give us this day our daily bread...." We ask for nothing more than that....

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Elfin

Hi Dave.... Oh sweetheart . I seriously do hold you in highest esteem. But I'm a person of simple words and I can't always get my mind around things you are saying. And that is not being dis-respectful in any way , shape or form. It's just how I am. However.... The two words I did pick up on which sent an instant message were "fearful" and " greedy"...both traits you highlighted as a negative. I can only say that I possess neither of those traits. I am never fearful in any way , shape, or form. And greed is like a swear word to me... " Give us this day our daily bread...." We ask for nothing more than that....

That's good! There's more to possibly 'love' than being happy with your 'daily bread', 'newborn babies' etc. and not being fearful or greedy, however.

That depends on whether one has such capacity though.

Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (authors of 'Flow: the Psychology of Optimal Experience" breaks people into three categories - using a 'game' in which people can choose the distance from a peg from which to throw horseshoes aimed at 'pegging' them, for illustrative example, there are those who:

(1) elect to stand so close to the peg that that practically always 'succeed', i..e they are practically never 'disappointed',

(2) position themselves stand so far away from the peg that they only manage to corral it 'by accident' so to speak (they thereby avoid having to deal with any feeling of disappointment as 'success' in never really emotionally 'hoped' for and/or expected',

and (3) those who choose to aim to corral the peg from a distance which challenges/exercises their capacity to aim and appropriately propel the horseshoes they 'throw'.

It is such (3) people who have the 'best' ('optimal' according to csikszentmihalyi) kind of Life-Flow engagement and experience.

I hope your philosophy and choices are in accord with those in this third 'group' - as you say you prefer 'simplicity' in terms of word-expression, so I can't tell whether you 'fit in' with group (1) or group (3).

P.S. I wouldn't self-diminishingly describe myself (or 'love' ) as being a 'sweet' heart - just ask SD and Miss H what they think of 'me' or my 'brand' of 'love'.

Originally Posted by davidsun

That's good! There's more to possibly 'love' than being happy with your 'daily bread', 'newborn babies' etc. and not being fearful or greedy, however.

That depends on whether one has such capacity though.

Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (authors of 'Flow: the Psychology of Optimal Experience" breaks people into three categories - using a 'game' in which people can choose the distance from a peg from which to throw horseshoes aimed at 'pegging' them, for illustrative example, there are those who:

(1) elect to stand so close to the peg that that practically always 'succeed', i..e they are practically never 'disappointed',

(2) position themselves stand so far away from the peg that they only manage to corral it 'by accident' so to speak (they thereby avoid having to deal with any feeling of disappointment as 'success' in never really emotionally 'hoped' for and/or expected',

and (3) those who choose to aim to corral the peg from a distance which challenges/exercises their capacity to aim and appropriately propel the horseshoes they 'throw'.

It is such (3) people who have the 'best' ('optimal' according to csikszentmihalyi) kind of Life-Flow engagement and experience.

I hope your philosophy and choices are in accord with those in this third 'group' - as you say you prefer 'simplicity' in terms of word-expression, so I can't tell whether you 'fit in' with group (1) or group (3).

P.S. I wouldn't self-diminishingly describe myself (or 'love' ) as being a 'sweet' heart - just ask SD and Miss H what they think of 'me' or my 'brand' of 'love'.

Hi ...AGAIN...yes you are a sweetheart... Cos I'm saying it..thetefore must be true! But Angel...I've already said I can't understand your words...you are obviously very "learned"... And believe it or not, so am I!!!... But I'm also h.s.p and empath therefore there is only so much mind can cope with, as I take on everything!! That's why I can only do "plain and simple"... But I think... And I do think we sing from the same hymn sheet...but honey... Tell me it all in simple words ... Please!!

P.s with regard to above, lol. I don't and won't go about asking others opinions about someone else!!! I certainly wouldn't wish to put anyone else in a "position"... I find out for myself...anyway since I can't b****y understand a word you say it hardly matters lolol... Never stop being yourself,!

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Elfin

Hi ...AGAIN...yes you are a sweetheart... Cos I'm saying it..thetefore must be true! But Angel..

Saccharin (artifical sweetness) is something I am very suspicious of and really dislike as a flavor

Originally Posted by Elfin

I've already said I can't understand your words...you are obviously very "learned"... And believe it or not, so am I!!!... But I'm also h.s.p and empath therefore there is only so much mind can cope with, as I take on everything!! That's why I can only do "plain and simple"... But I think... And I do think we sing from the same hymn sheet...but honey... Tell me it all in simple words ... Please!!

Life ain't 'simple'. Sorry your 'empathy' is so out-of-control that its got you boon-doggled. Oh well ... maybe we'll have something to do with each others in another life. I'll say bye-bye for now. Don't be surprised if I call any further 'simplistic' pronouncements you make pertaining to 'love' into serious question for purposes of group discussion here, however.

[JosephineB]

David, have you sorted out a glossary of your made up words yet

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

David, have you sorted out a glossary of your made up words yet

Just let me know which words go over your head (after you try to contextually deduce what I mean by them or look them up in compendia - that's how I learned 'English') and I'll be glad to say more about what I mean by them - just for you.