The best meditation method

[Unseeking Seeker]

Hi Miss H! Long time, no see :)

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by peteyzen

We all arrive at meditation carrying unique baggage and with different outlooks. Like boats arriving at shore with different algae and barnacles on different keel materials, the first part of the process is we need to clean/remove our debris.
There are two mindsets to be aware of when starting meditation, traditionally they were known as Eastern and Western mindset - although these days this distinction is not so clear.
Eastern mindset is less egoic and easier for the teacher, in this mindset you are given a meditation and then you just immerse yourself into it and follow the instructions to the letter and stick with it- no questions just effort.
In Western mindset - which is more common - where there is a lot of thinking, then it is important for the teacher to find a method that the student finds interesting and fits their personality/mindset. Then the removal of the barnacles can begin!
That said, with the western mindset, as a teacher, it is useful to have a few meditation methods in your pocket, as the western mind is unlikely to stick to one method for long periods of time and needs different toys to play with to keep them interested. That is not a problem, as I said people come to meditation with different baggage so need to be handled appropriately.

As you say, nowadays the distinction between Eastern and Western mindsets is not so clear. And I suspect that many who are currently in Eastern bodies have had many previous lives in Western bodies and vice versa.

I am not sure if the Eastern mindset is less egoic and easier for the teacher. Yes, they may have a long tradition of devotion and surrender to the guru, but this does not mean they automatically fully commit to their practice. Easterners have all the same flaws as Westerners including doubt and laziness.

Is it up to the teacher of Westerners to find a meditation practice to suit the practitioner? Perhaps yes, if that teacher is a general teacher of meditation and recognises that different people respond to different methods. But many teachers of Westerners teach a particular method, a specific practice, and they attract people who are drawn to both the teacher and the practice.

I speak as a Westerner who followed a particular teacher back in the 1970s/1980s specifically because of the meditation he taught. There were no additional practices or "toys" to keep me interested. And often, especially in the early days, that meditation was physically and/or mentally excruciating. And even if the teacher and I parted company long ago, I still stick with the method I learned over 40 years ago because I have not found anything which compares to it.

Peace

[Chainer]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

Addressing the opening post #1

In my view, meditation as a ritual is an interim step to slowing down momentum of thought, which has become a reflex response over time. Ultimately, meditation, being nothing other than our natural state, intimate and immediate, should be an ever present orientation. To get to or rather to reclaim this innateness to our being, perhaps we must slowly let go of the external and internalise our attention, with a view to prioritising rekindling (in active consciousness) our own divinity within.

No shortcuts!

Thought is eventually rested and employed only as an instrument. This of course automatically implies that we live in agendaless exuberance, vibrant in the bliss current.

The ‘letting go of’ to get to is an aspect of acceptance and surrender that needs to be constantly refreshed by simple, effortless, watchful mindfulness.

Nice... much as I did not like the first part of your post the clarity in that is worth a shout out.

For me, (note my practise is Rinzai Zen), in order to be in the game you must both a: Stop your mind, and b: BUT remain conscious of yourself.

[Chainer]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

Addressing the opening post #1

In my view, meditation as a ritual is an interim step to slowing down momentum of thought, which has become a reflex response over time. Ultimately, meditation, being nothing other than our natural state, intimate and immediate, should be an ever present orientation. To get to or rather to reclaim this innateness to our being, perhaps we must slowly let go of the external and internalise our attention, with a view to prioritising rekindling (in active consciousness) our own divinity within.

No shortcuts!

Thought is eventually rested and employed only as an instrument. This of course automatically implies that we live in agendaless exuberance, vibrant in the bliss current.

The ‘letting go of’ to get to is an aspect of acceptance and surrender that needs to be constantly refreshed by simple, effortless, watchful mindfulness.

Nice... much as I did not like the first part of your post the clarity in that is worth a shout out.

For me, (note my practise is Rinzai Zen), in order to be in the game you must both a: Stop your mind, and b: BUT remain conscious of yourself.

[Unseeking Seeker]

Originally Posted by Chainer

Nice... much as I did not like the first part of your post the clarity in that is worth a shout out.

For me, (note my practise is Rinzai Zen), in order to be in the game you must both a: Stop your mind, and b: BUT remain conscious of yourself.

***

Great! What you say sounds the same as thought rested awareness or stillness or silence or melting in no-thingness, simply present, receptive to surprise, yet unexpectant.

***

[Chainer]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

***

Great! What you say sounds the same as thought rested awareness or stillness or silence or melting in no-thingness, simply present, receptive to surprise, yet unexpectant.

***

Indeed, melting into 'no thoughtness' is my preferred way to say it.

For me your mind must 'stop moving', the image in your mind must literally freeze and then dissolve, while you are conscious of it. Otherwise you are simply zoning out and day dreaming, via your some aspect of your Ego, which means its still in control.

This is the main problem with people I teach, they cannot get past their Egoic mind, they don't follow the instructions, they resist them.

Upon further contemplation I posit the best technique is that which best facilitates detachment of being from doership and ownership. I also posit it can vary by individual.

If one gains mastery physical and mental activity no longer carries doership and ownership and not only while engaged in formal practice.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Upon further contemplation I posit the best technique is that which best facilitates detachment of being from doership and ownership. I also posit it can vary by individual.

If one gains mastery physical and mental activity no longer carries doership and ownership and not only while engaged in formal practice.

This is a great explanation: https://youtu.be/QfJTkCts-mw?t=3623

[peteyzen]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think the Eastern one requires docile obedience and the Western one is like 'you do what you like'. The former removes discernment and the latter promotes pleasure. If meditation is about the truth, you need discerment, which means you won't be obedient, and the truth is what it is regardless of individual's preferences,

People have different baggage and that has to be purified as you say, but there is a key to purification which isn't different for different kinds of baggage. Though that doesn't rule out different methods as such, it does rule out methods that are not based on the fundamental key.

I know that's very disagreeable because it means you have to discern for yourself and you can't get what you want, but if one is really interested in what's true, they'll start paying attention to that.

Very well said.

[peteyzen]

Originally Posted by iamthat

As you say, nowadays the distinction between Eastern and Western mindsets is not so clear. And I suspect that many who are currently in Eastern bodies have had many previous lives in Western bodies and vice versa.

I am not sure if the Eastern mindset is less egoic and easier for the teacher. Yes, they may have a long tradition of devotion and surrender to the guru, but this does not mean they automatically fully commit to their practice. Easterners have all the same flaws as Westerners including doubt and laziness.

Is it up to the teacher of Westerners to find a meditation practice to suit the practitioner? Perhaps yes, if that teacher is a general teacher of meditation and recognises that different people respond to different methods. But many teachers of Westerners teach a particular method, a specific practice, and they attract people who are drawn to both the teacher and the practice.

I speak as a Westerner who followed a particular teacher back in the 1970s/1980s specifically because of the meditation he taught. There were no additional practices or "toys" to keep me interested. And often, especially in the early days, that meditation was physically and/or mentally excruciating. And even if the teacher and I parted company long ago, I still stick with the method I learned over 40 years ago because I have not found anything which compares to it.

Peace

Also very well said.