Who's to say loving is right and harming is wrong?

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Luminary

I understand loving others, recognizing one is not separate. However, isn't doing this assuming loving is right and harming is wrong? What am I missing?

You're question is interesting and not as trifling as some people are making out. I think Iamthat summed it up perfectly, do unto others, none of us wished to be harmed.
And now all you have to do is live in a world were blindness is rampant in the form of unjust wars all over the place, propaganda spin and narrative everywhere, no wonder you asked such a question

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[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Luminary

My apologies for being unclear. I assumed readers of this section know those embracing non-duality to understand that all is one - love and hate, me and it, us and them, good and bad, right and wrong - that there are no such labels in oneness. I was playing the devil's advocate - if one seeks to better the world through love, isn't that placing labels of "good" on love and "bad" on harming?

Thanks for the clarification. I did wonder why this was posted in Non-Duality.

I agree that there are no such labels (love and hate, me and it, us and them, good and bad, right and wrong) in Oneness. Oneness is simply Being.

But when you refer to seeking "to better the world through love" then we are now dealing with relative existence and duality rather than Oneness.

Oneness, being everywhere, is unmoving. There is nowhere Oneness can move because it is already everywhere. Action is movement, so any action (such as harming) pertains to duality.

In Oneness the label of harming does not exist but nor does the actual activity of causing harm. To cause harm requires three things - the one who harms, the one who is harmed and the action of causing harm. Harm can only occur in relative existence.

But what about the human being who has realised the Self, knowing the Self as Oneness while still functioning in a physical body engaged with duality? Such a human knows both absolute Oneness and relative duality. What would make such a human being choose to act out of love rather than harm?

Perhaps because harm is usually motivated by identification with a small separate self which seeks some kind of gratification from causing harm. This may be due to the desire for personal gain or the desire for some kind of revenge or the desire for power over others. Or many other possible reasons.

The individual who has realised the limitless Self sees everything and everyone as expressions of the Self. Within this state the desire to harm does not arise, even while knowing that there is no-one present to harm or be harmed. There is no small separate self which seeks personal gratification through harming others.

When Consciousness is identified with the Self, knowing itself to be one thing everywhere, then this naturally finds expression through love.

Peace

[saurab]

Originally Posted by iamthat

In Oneness the label of harming does not exist but nor does the actual activity of causing harm.

This is very important.

[Gem]

Yea, harming is a real thing, and it can't be onenessed away, but it's really a matter of intent, and basically about keeping a check on the malice you might generate. It's harder than it sounds because we like our justification stories, and we aren't always honest with ourselves. I know it sounds better to say perfect love and the oneness of all things, but to be truthful about yourself is less fantastic yet more profound because you have that aversion and that craving that leads to ill-will, malice, temptation and such immorality. One has to be able to see that happen within themselves and understand the process of it. It might mean you don't love yourself as much a you'd like to or as much as you've been told you should, but at least you know the truth about the person that you are.

[charly233]

Originally Posted by Luminary

I understand loving others, recognizing one is not separate. However, isn't doing this assuming loving is right and harming is wrong? What am I missing?

I don't think that all dualities are necessarily bad. The love/hate duality reflects the moral law of the universe that it is wrong to harm others. To apply nonduality to the love/hate duality is to undermine the moral law. It is right to assume that loving is right and harming is wrong.

The duality of self and other is both good and bad. On the one hand the self/other duality allows individuality to flourish. On the other hand deconstructing this duality heals separation and allows love to flourish.

There are, it seems to me, some contexts in which duality is appropriate and others in which nonduality best reflects the truth. The attempt to apply nonduality to every duality is unfortunate. It may contradict the moral law of the universe that it is wrong to harm others. This law if dualistic in the sense that it implies a duality of love/hate. It is nondualistic in the sense that it implies oneness and the transcendence of separation between beings.

[Luminary]

I've enjoyed reading all your comments and have been revisiting just to think upon your words some more.

Saurab, visiting your site. I had never heard of Krishnamurti and I love his quote in your signature. Your thoughts are especially intriguing, but I got something out of every comment - well... maybe except for one

[Luminary]

"but to be truthful about yourself is less fantastic yet more profound"

Gem, would you define that (owning your poo) as shadow work?

And I agree with this: "Yea, harming is a real thing, and it can't be onenessed away..." I've experienced a Hell greatly more real than this 3D world; I've experienced Oneness and love that was transcendent and life-changing. Sad to say the former has left a bigger mark on me and I seek EVERY day not to forget its lessons. Suffice to say there are many valid perspectives and experiences. I must keep this in mind... or I will go insane.

[Luminary]

Originally Posted by charly233

I don't think that all dualities are necessarily bad. The love/hate duality reflects the moral law of the universe that it is wrong to harm others. To apply nonduality to the love/hate duality is to undermine the moral law. It is right to assume that loving is right and harming is wrong.

I love this, charly233, and I completely agree. Such a sweet, loving way of looking at things. So beautiful. I believe in a "rightness" to be found in the nature and character of love. That being said, I know nothing implicitly. I don't believe the wise do. Lesson hard learned.

[Luminary]

Originally Posted by iamthat

When Consciousness is identified with the Self, knowing itself to be one thing everywhere, then this naturally finds expression through love.

This is concise and profound. It's requiring some sinking in. Lots of intellectual arguments going on in my head. But at least I'm growing to appreciate how it's seen this way. There are many valid ways of looking at it, and I'm rethinking my approach.

[utopiandreamchild]

Originally Posted by Luminary

I understand loving others, recognizing one is not separate. However, isn't doing this assuming loving is right and harming is wrong? What am I missing?

Imo hate is the thing that is wrong and love (I would agree) is right.
utopiandreamchild