The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

[sky]

"The Blessed One said, "I will teach & analyze for you the Noble Eightfold Path. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. Etc:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi....008.than.html

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky

In the Buddhist Sangha I occasionally attend you are not asked to take any 'Vows', mybe in your Ashram. There is another small difference, you call it 'Training' they call it 'Practising'.....

The precepts are usually a prerequisite, along with refuge.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

The precepts are usually a prerequisite, along with refuge.

Maybe in your Ashram.... as I said previously we don't 'Train' either, we 'Practise', there seems to be a difference, but to each their own.

' A desire for a community to support a life of compassion, peace and joy is the only prerequisite.'
Thích Nhất Hạnh

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky

Thích Nhất Hạnh

I'm sure TNH says refuge and the precepts are precursors to formal practice and explains how it all goes together. I could easily find a quote taken out of context to 'prove' it, but it's probably better for people to google what he has to say on the subject. It's pretty much the same as what I have said, but I can't get a lot of nuance in post format.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Gem

It starts with refuge, and morality is the foundation of meditation,
Refuge and the precepts are taken before you start training. I suppose you could have your own version, but typically in Buddhism it's like I said.

Quoting from "The Buddha and His Teachings by Narada Maha Thera, Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, 1980):

"Right Understanding is explained as the knowledge of the four Noble Truths. In other words, it is the UNDERSTANDING of oneself as one REALLY is, because, as the Rohitassa Sutta states, these truths are concerned with the 'one-fathom long body of man'. (There's an intriguing implication there, I might add. )

The key-note of Buddhism is this RIGHT UNDERSTANDING."

The book was given to me many many years ago by a Sinhalese Buddhist friend from Sri Lanka. When I went to a Burmese Theravada Buddhist monastery and showed the book to the Abbot to solicit his opinion, he showed me that the monastery uses the exact same book from which I am quoting with the only difference being that I have the English-language version.

I have met and practiced with Buddhist monks in Burma/Mymmar, Thailand, Nepal, China (Hangzhou), Tibet (Lhasa), Hanoi (Vietnam), the mountains of Luang Prabang (Laos), Cambodia, Korea, Sarnath (India) where Buddha delivered his first sermon on the Four Noble Truths, and (of course) various locations in the United States (and probably even more places which I can't recall in this moment). My understanding of RIGHT UNDERSTANDING is consistent with virtually all of the Buddhist monks whom I have met.

To redirect your own statement back to you, "I suppose you could have your own version, but typically in Buddhism it's like I said."

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 19 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Gem

It's way too early to talk about kamma
I couldn't contextualise that with kamma at this stage, and I'd be happily surprised if the thread becomes that nuanced.

I agree that it's too early to talk about kamma; I was just quoting a passage and the word kamma was integral to the passage. I definitely expect to get into kamma at some point but, as you indicated, it is indeed "way too early to talk about kamma" in any depth at this point.

(We're having enough preliminary difficulties Right Now in just understanding "Right Understanding". Hopefully, we'll get past the first step at some point soon in the forseeable future. )

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

I'm sure TNH says refuge and the precepts are precursors to formal practice and explains how it all goes together. I could easily find a quote taken out of context to 'prove' it, but it's probably better for people to google what he has to say on the subject.

Yes people can Google what He says, simple enough but I can 100% assure you that in the Buddhist Sangha I occasionally attend vows and refuge etc: are not precursors to any practises....

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 19 EXCERPT

(We're having enough preliminary difficulties Right Now in just understanding "Right Understanding". Hopefully, we'll get past the first step at some point soon in the forseeable future. )

Shall I get the Popcorn and refreshments ready, we could be here for a longgggggg time

[sky]

Understanding the Four Noble Truths ends with understanding the Eightfold Path hopefully , the first step in the Eightfold Path is the Four Noble Truths, and the last of the Four Noble Truths is the Eightfold Path, so it's circular imo.....

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

To redirect your own statement back to you, "I suppose you could have your own version, but typically in Buddhism it's like I said."

I think you'll find that the consensus across Buddhist sects is sila is the foundation of practice. Sila leads to the meditation/concentration which leads to insight/understanding/wisdom. Hence, Sila is 'first' in these two ways: when you undertake formal training you take sila vows prior to commencing meditation (retreat) and; sila is the bedrock of practice.

As this extends into your practice, making sila your foundation is the right way, but it doesn't come as a linear list 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Sila, samadhi and wisdom are inseparable and you can't develop properly without them all. As I said, sila inevitably leads to samadhi which leads to insight which enhances sila, but this is conceived of not in linear order, but as an interconnected circle (or as a triangle if you prefer). The 8 path is also represented in circular form with spokes connecting the different aspects. This is not an area of debate in Buddhist philosophy.