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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 27-04-2020, 11:41 AM
Unseeking Seeker Unseeking Seeker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Just stating the issue to be addressed. Did not mean to suggest you were part of that issue.

Concerning the actuality of our being, I prefer the nondual view that Oneness is the only reality. It ends the unfairness of personal responsibility (We never have all the data when making decisions), and ends the search for enlightenment for those for whom it resonates. Whats your preferrence?

***

My preference?

Ceasing thinking ... thought free awareness in stillness and allowing what appears to embrace. As such, no preference, since we let go.

As it so happened, it was the energy path, without technique.

It’s not that I haven’t read a bit here & there but actuality of being is what I hold as valid.


***
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  #12  
Old 27-04-2020, 11:55 AM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Ah...the duality of non dual concepts begins again.

How I see it, is that Advaita Vedanta follows a more traditional, orthodox and longer lineage of teachers going back to Adi Shankaracharya, Gaudapada and the whole Smarta tradition which is wholly based on Shruti or scriptures of Vedas, like the Upanishads:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smarta_tradition

Neo Advaita is similar to above, but the word "Neo" meaning "New" is a branch of Advaita Vedanta which was propounded by Ramana Maharishi, Swami Vivekananda and other teachers who had great influence in the West, establishing many Ashrams around such countries.

I don't understand the differences in their entirety, but Swami Vivekananda is considered a Neo-Vedantist, whereas Ramana Maharishi is considered a Neo-Advaitist. Both are breaks from traditional Advaita Vedanta and to tell you the truth I'm not too concerned with the differences but with what apparently works best and that probably varies with the individual.

I think I do understand one of the differences with Neo-Vedanta is it's more a universal doctrine and any one single Yoga practice can bring about enlightenment, including Bhakti as practiced by Christianity or for that matter any religion. It's very inclusive.

EDIT: My experience came about largely before I delved too deeply into Vedanta. That tells me the details and differences aren't really that important, at least in the bigger scheme of things.
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  #13  
Old 29-04-2020, 12:01 PM
no1wakesup no1wakesup is offline
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Traditional Advaita= There are separate persons who can become enlightened by following paths and practises.

The seemingly insurmountable challenge is the minds non negotiable need to take its own sense of singular identity, and therefore survival, into a hopeful story where "oneness" really means something other that what is seems to be pointing to. An immediate Interpretation of nothing more than a pointer of a state beyond all concepts and realtionships. Here, most secretly hope that "oneness" really means that all the "sepeate ones" come together into one big universal space, (because percieved space must be there if personal subjectivity is maintained at any level). In turn, maintaining its separation in order to understand "togetherness" as only a conceptualized oneness. A TEAM of oneness, if you will. The ultimate goal of course being preserving, at all costs, the solid sense of "me". This me is never to be jeopardized.
Non duality simply means "not two". A state of non separation and so a state of no-relationships. So no "other" anywhere, no subject- object, no observer and observed, no seer nor seen and no me and no you. This goes totally against and threatens at its core the very fabric of personal egoic survival which long ago anchored the absolute me-identity as something primary. Where a mounting conditioning one day claimed for itself an ownership in separation. This is a portion of a process in place attempting to interperate, and somehow reconcile, a "someone" still there post enlightenment. It's a hopeful measure only the mind wants to preserve. The true engine for that path is survival driven (mostly ego). It wants and need to claim, ""I" - am enlightened". Unfortunately, this is not a revelation which comes by way of belief. Nor is it's an agreement or conclusion for any separate sense of identity to consider

Through this lense of separation, one then reacts and determines some sort of minimalist and nihilistic end result. A realatively dark fear sets in and survival immediately become the goal. From here, every fundamentally anchored and layered belief which anchors ones own reality rushes back to reinforced and confirm separation in all its conceptual glory. All by way from years of conditioning. So with lightening speed we come right back into what we know as a common and casual existence

The confusion is not that that this physical reality and sense of separation is the ultimate illusion. This is a physical reality with its own laws. Instead, it's our deep seeded belief in finding our own identification in that expression. The ego is the ultimate duality which eventually claims, personifies and perpetually labels its ongoing individuality

Neo Advaita Is what a mind which believes in Taditional Advaita would find absolutely offensive.

So, as all duality must thrive... there's an opposing belief to entain for others which tend to agree with what Neo Advaita claims...

Neo Advaita= Separate persons are an illusion so no separate persons who can become enlightened, so no increase in terms of connection by following paths and practise. There can be no increase in connecton to Oneness by changing from one state to another because Oneness is the only reality and already all states, including the state that already appears to be 'you'.

Yet, just like the first option, Neo Avaita from the minds perspective, simply becomes another belief to entertain and the, "everything is all ready one" thingy becomes another useless concept to put away in the ever growing arsenal of spiritual knowledge.

There is a relative someone there that conceived space, and by the boundaries within that space, measurement was born and enabled a sense of time going by. Eventually, this subjective position inherits a label or title and ownership is claimed. A self identity is born and runs its course

Neo Advaita points to a state without identification or separation. With no one there to become enlightened or liberated in the first place. So there is nothing for anyone to do. AGAIN , this is not another choice or belief. Not something to agree with or replace with a prior belief. But sure enough, the mind will filter a new concept for itself which says, "Well, I'm already IT. I have nothing to gain or do. I am oneness already, you see" No, you don't. And in every step of that way there remains an assumption that this oneness somehow has something to do with my own centralized sense of separation. That they are one in the same. They are, in the sense that one is encompassed by the source. However, it is not a state which has anything to do with a personal and separate identity at the helm. And so mostly remains as simply another conceptual belief. Here, when the enthusiastic follower of Neo Advaita says "I AM God", its not the selfless state which is pointed to but the ego which stands behind that statement secretly relieved to know, "I'm God too!". As if it were some huge revelation, yet the "wow" factor came only to satisfied and serve the self esteem of individuality.

And so the movie continues. It make NO difference which "path" you believe in or follow. It's not important. In this case, its really just one side of the same coin

Enlightenment adds nothing to you.. nor do you take anything away that ever had any real substance. Theres a quality that simply remains, has always been there but now reconciled. And there is no one there to claim it.
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  #14  
Old 29-04-2020, 01:35 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Location: West Wales. u.k
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1wakesup
Traditional Advaita= There are separate persons who can become enlightened by following paths and practises.

The seemingly insurmountable challenge is the minds non negotiable need to take its own sense of singular identity, and therefore survival, into a hopeful story where "oneness" really means something other that what is seems to be pointing to. An immediate Interpretation of nothing more than a pointer of a state beyond all concepts and realtionships. Here, most secretly hope that "oneness" really means that all the "sepeate ones" come together into one big universal space, (because percieved space must be there if personal subjectivity is maintained at any level). In turn, maintaining its separation in order to understand "togetherness" as only a conceptualized oneness. A TEAM of oneness, if you will. The ultimate goal of course being preserving, at all costs, the solid sense of "me". This me is never to be jeopardized.
Non duality simply means "not two". A state of non separation and so a state of no-relationships. So no "other" anywhere, no subject- object, no observer and observed, no seer nor seen and no me and no you. This goes totally against and threatens at its core the very fabric of personal egoic survival which long ago anchored the absolute me-identity as something primary. Where a mounting conditioning one day claimed for itself an ownership in separation. This is a portion of a process in place attempting to interperate, and somehow reconcile, a "someone" still there post enlightenment. It's a hopeful measure only the mind wants to preserve. The true engine for that path is survival driven (mostly ego). It wants and need to claim, ""I" - am enlightened". Unfortunately, this is not a revelation which comes by way of belief. Nor is it's an agreement or conclusion for any separate sense of identity to consider

Through this lense of separation, one then reacts and determines some sort of minimalist and nihilistic end result. A realatively dark fear sets in and survival immediately become the goal. From here, every fundamentally anchored and layered belief which anchors ones own reality rushes back to reinforced and confirm separation in all its conceptual glory. All by way from years of conditioning. So with lightening speed we come right back into what we know as a common and casual existence

The confusion is not that that this physical reality and sense of separation is the ultimate illusion. This is a physical reality with its own laws. Instead, it's our deep seeded belief in finding our own identification in that expression. The ego is the ultimate duality which eventually claims, personifies and perpetually labels its ongoing individuality

Neo Advaita Is what a mind which believes in Taditional Advaita would find absolutely offensive.

So, as all duality must thrive... there's an opposing belief to entain for others which tend to agree with what Neo Advaita claims...

Neo Advaita= Separate persons are an illusion so no separate persons who can become enlightened, so no increase in terms of connection by following paths and practise. There can be no increase in connecton to Oneness by changing from one state to another because Oneness is the only reality and already all states, including the state that already appears to be 'you'.

Yet, just like the first option, Neo Avaita from the minds perspective, simply becomes another belief to entertain and the, "everything is all ready one" thingy becomes another useless concept to put away in the ever growing arsenal of spiritual knowledge.

There is a relative someone there that conceived space, and by the boundaries within that space, measurement was born and enabled a sense of time going by. Eventually, this subjective position inherits a label or title and ownership is claimed. A self identity is born and runs its course

Neo Advaita points to a state without identification or separation. With no one there to become enlightened or liberated in the first place. So there is nothing for anyone to do. AGAIN , this is not another choice or belief. Not something to agree with or replace with a prior belief. But sure enough, the mind will filter a new concept for itself which says, "Well, I'm already IT. I have nothing to gain or do. I am oneness already, you see" No, you don't. And in every step of that way there remains an assumption that this oneness somehow has something to do with my own centralized sense of separation. That they are one in the same. They are, in the sense that one is encompassed by the source. However, it is not a state which has anything to do with a personal and separate identity at the helm. And so mostly remains as simply another conceptual belief. Here, when the enthusiastic follower of Neo Advaita says "I AM God", its not the selfless state which is pointed to but the ego which stands behind that statement secretly relieved to know, "I'm God too!". As if it were some huge revelation, yet the "wow" factor came only to satisfied and serve the self esteem of individuality.

And so the movie continues. It make NO difference which "path" you believe in or follow. It's not important. In this case, its really just one side of the same coin

Enlightenment adds nothing to you.. nor do you take anything away that ever had any real substance. Theres a quality that simply remains, has always been there but now reconciled. And there is no one there to claim it.


Some say it feels like the mind has the capacity to resonate with an idea/concept that ends the search. The quality of the inner life of another is not known by others for them to know the quality of that experience or to judge it to be inferior.
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  #15  
Old 29-04-2020, 04:57 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker
***

Nothing I wrote implied superiority or inferiority my dear

What is our actuality of being? Right now. I’m sure awareness is common to all paths.


***
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  #16  
Old 30-04-2020, 12:25 PM
no1wakesup no1wakesup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
Some say it feels like the mind has the capacity to resonate with an idea/concept that ends the search. The quality of the inner life of another is not known by others for them to know the quality of that experience or to judge it to be inferior.

There is no "inferiority" anywhere here, unless a position has grounded itself as offended. This is in general and points to how the mind typically interprets as it incessantly and unconsciously adds to itself.

If concepts and beliefs temparaily move beyond the minds perpetual "me" machine, then yes, of course something can be felt. Some have followed this feeling just long enough to experience a shift. Yet that concept fueled reality has no place to anchor its presumed identity and importance. Which is why a gap in awareness is so short lived. We immediately rush back to the safety of what we believe we know as authentic. In that shift however, if awareness expands just enough, there's a new scenary where the devide between absence and reality is revealed.

Where you are is respected.
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  #17  
Old 30-04-2020, 01:40 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1wakesup
There is no "inferiority" anywhere here, ...
Aye to that, NoOne! But there is plenty of 'smug-snob'ery which can be readily witnessed, as well 'truthfully' exposed as and confronted for being such if one so chooses.
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Last edited by davidsun : 30-04-2020 at 02:38 PM.
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  #18  
Old 30-04-2020, 03:54 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Originally Posted by davidsun
But there is plenty of 'smug-snob'ery which can be readily witnessed, as well 'truthfully' exposed as and confronted for being such if one so chooses.
Here's an (archetypal) 'story' which depicts the 'secondary gain' dynamics which often accompany and reinforce the continuance of guru-lineages and group-'manifestations' of what I 'see' as essentially being "If you believe, think, feel and do what I do, you can 'have' what I 'have'," smug-snobbery-characterized philosophical 'sales pitches' (which pose as not being generous 'give-aways', not 'sales pitches'):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xZm2UOam74

Note: I am not saying this necessarily applies to things said in this thread. Just sharing it as possibly being pertinent, and generally worth being aware of and thinking about.
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  #19  
Old 30-04-2020, 05:02 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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It is not surprising that tradition uses all sorts of invalidating techniques to undermine new teachings which threaten established beliefs and vested interests. Established beliefs that were not insecure would not have to indulge in this and would be able to accept any new teachings as additional offers/invitations to seekers who may not be resonating with the traditional. Unfortunately the new approaches may also get involved in these turf wars rather than taking the position that there is room for different approaches as seekers vary and what will suit one may not suit another.
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  #20  
Old 30-04-2020, 05:42 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
It is not surprising that tradition uses all sorts of invalidating techniques to undermine new teachings which threaten established beliefs and vested interests. Established beliefs that were not insecure would not have to indulge in this and would be able to accept any new teachings as additional offers/invitations to seekers who may not be resonating with the traditional. Unfortunately the new approaches may also get involved in these turf wars rather than taking the position that there is room for different approaches as seekers vary and what will suit one may not suit another.
It is also possible that both the 'old' and the 'new' groupie 'teachings' are 'deficient' in significant measure. Witness the histories of 'Capitalism' and 'Communism' as well as Xianity and Islam, for example - such that 'followers' of both 'approaches' are 'smug-blindly' headed for different-side-of-the-road 'ditches'. There is certainly a LOT of 'room' for that, aye what, 'it'man?

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew Ch.7)
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