Down the objective rabbit hole

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by movingalways

You had an experience...
... t bliss would be like?

these kind of stories/thoughts are so brief, I can hardly even remember them. They are like brief thoughts in the wind. What sticks is my suffering which has no story. It just is what it is. Tho I understand how useless those thoughts and stories are, they are desperate attempts at trying to understand my fate. I get that. They are useless.

My suffering is also useless. But it's still there. I cant do anything about it.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

hi ewerrin...
... in the emotional world...

In that case, I can only beg this deeper thing than my body, to have mercy on me. As I am suffering allot. And I find it hard to believe any reason is worth all of this. But I have a strong feeling that what you say is true. There seems to be no end to how much worse it can get. I feel like my suffering is the best possible thing available for me right now. And it sucks, but unfortunately it seems to be the case. I can only wish for something better to come around soon enough. Altho I have given up hope on that. As every better thing comes with an even worse thing.

I wish it would end once and for all. I feel like my fate is to suffer for a loooong time. And I can't bare the idea of me experiencing all of this for even one day longer.

I know there will come a day, like always, that I will bless all that I have suffered. And I will be happy beyond words. But I also know that something worse will come after that aswell. I wish I could be free from the cycle forever. But I have never been able to find an escape.

[FallingLeaves]

end, once and for all, is death...

at some point I found myself questioning, whether these good feelings I like, are really of value other than that I really really like them? I know what my opinion on that is but I can't really say that has any more validity than anything else I've ever said to myself. So I try not to push my views on other people...

This is hard it is so very hard... and for me the worst part is, I've gotta somehow find my way through this mess without expecting other people to support me... aargh!

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

end, once...
... people to support me... aargh!

I find that there is nothing of value, except a good feeling. It's the only good thing in life that I know of.

I don't experience it much unfortunately.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by movingalways

A scientist looks through an electron microscope to see an object as tiny as 0.1 mm, beyond that, his or her perceiving vision cannot go. Why this is important to realize is when, by the guidance of our intuition we go down the rabbit hole beyond the visible realm, what we find is the formless.

Objective reality goes beyond objects and the senses. The big or whole picture is that objects are not separate from the subject (and vice versa), nor is the object any different than the subject (and vice versa). This is absolute reality as a whole and complete. Everything, including form, subject and object is absolute reality on the fundamental level, thus it makes no sense to separate and divide the two and creating a problem where a problem does not exist to begin with.


What really matters is personal subjectivity- i.e personal biases, feelings, caring about stuff that a person should not care about etc etc that makes a person think too much.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

I agree, this has to be nonduality. And SINCE it is nonduality. Why is there so much recurring and chronic suffering here then for me?

Why? Because you could be caring about stuff that does not really matter.

[Maisy]

Thoughts create so much. "Today is horrible" or "Today is wonderful." One word creates an experience. Can one be free of thoughts effect on experience? Is it possible? I think so yes as I have seen through the illusional nature of thoughts several times. Is it easy to do? I think no. We habitually and naturally accept thought as some kind of comment of reality. The acceptance of a thought creates an experience of it.

The thought comes, we are aware of it, we accept it as an accurate description of what is, the brain cooperates on our acceptance of it as reality and produces chemicals to make us "feel" the thoughts. That's the general process.

Here's a process involving more awareness.

The thought comes, we question it's reality, we toss it, have no acceptance of it's reality, the brain no longer produces chemicals to reinforce it's reality as we have rejected it. We have transcended the thought. Not let it have any power to create an experience. By totally rejecting it.

We can concentrate and discard all thoughts as they come into our consciousness. This does not change the what is, but it changes our experience of the what is.

Perhaps better is to consciously reject negative thoughts and nurture and feed positive thoughts, as to let go of all thoughts takes a lot of concentration and energy.

The zen master is just sweeping leaves. The average person is also just sweeping leaves but at the same time involved with a lot of thoughts that color his or her experience of sweeping leaves. What is an experience of sweeping leaves without an internal running commentary in your mind? One can find out. One can see and find out if such a way to be has a value for them or not.

To let go and just be with whatever is. To listen and not speak. To hear and not react. To be silence within noise.

[Starman]

In my opinion duality has an important role to play in our spiritual development. The façade of objectivity allows us to work with tools and interact in relationships. Relationships, be they with inanimate or animate objects, are one of the most prevalent ways which we reflect on ourselves.

There probably would be no reflection without a perceived dualistic objectivity. The problem with duality is that most people struggle with it instead of letting go to non-duality. We get caught up in human culture and all the expectations that come with nomenclatures associated with that, i.e. money, nationality, ethnicity, etc., etc.

What is the relationship in non-duality, and those who have experienced non-duality know that the relationship is always with ourselves, until that self becomes one with itself and there are no more relationships. This is not true when one is fixated in duality thinking that objectivity is the only reality, and the us and them mentality is preserved.

It does create all sorts of issues if we continuously dwell in a polarizing dualistic existence; at minimum it is unhealthy and highly opinionated. Yes, I am offering my opinion here. Duality is a constantly revolving firebrand with little to no stability or certainty. It is a temporary existence for everyone each moment that we exist in duality, as change is the only constant in duality, and even this too will pass.

A more stable existence is non-duality. Although, for most it is difficult to stay in a non-dualistic perspective while existing in duality. Duality can be very polarizing and people do get stuck in what appears to them as opposites; the one and the many are the same but some only see the many. I do not look down on that perspective because I dwelled there myself for God knows how long.

As Ram Dass said, “everything is grist for the mill.”

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Starman

In my opinion duality...
.. mill.”

How does one let go and experience nonduality?

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

How does one let go and experience nonduality?

This is the million dollar question, and countless books have been written about it.

There may be no simple recipe - do A then B then C and you will then let go and realise non-duality.

But it may help to become more impersonal. By impersonal I mean step back from the small personal self. Do not identify so strongly with the small personal self and all its antics. Observe the small personal self and all its dramas from a point of detachment.

Because it is not the small personal self which realises non-duality. The small personal self is a part of duality. As long as we identify with the small personal self then we remain caught up in duality.

As always, easier said than done. But we cannot realise non-duality while still holding on to duality.

Peace