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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Judaism

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  #21  
Old 13-08-2011, 11:18 PM
truther
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I believe that Christianity's claims are true by my own experiences and I also believe that the world is too diverse to not believe in others as well. We are all ONE. If I were born in Africa I would believe in tribal gods or if I were in Japan I would believe in Confucius. They all say the same things they just word it differently. I am personally Catholic and I respect other faiths including Judaism. There are things I disagree about my own faith as well as in others. I think its all a mystery.
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  #22  
Old 15-02-2012, 07:07 PM
UniverseofLove UniverseofLove is offline
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I was going to start my own thread, but I think some of my question ties in with this topic.
I noticed Psychoslice (Hi! :-) I've observed from y many your, that we share many of the same views.) commented on the interpretation of God in the OT being a war-like God. I, too, have grown accustomed to this aspect of Jewish doctrine but I want to know whether Jews believe God to be full of wrath or capable of experiencing wrath? Also, whether you think God is warmongoring?
I know one of you said you're tired of explaining it - I think that's how you put it - so, sorry if this request isn't comfortable for you.

I'm also wondering what the Jews' view on forgiveness is?

My beliefs are more in New Age Spirituality, Buddhism, Paganism and Witchcraft and I also believe in Christ Light/Consciousness, and follow his teachings of forgiveness and the unconditional love from Source. This, and other things, make me fond of Christianity to a point. I have always wondered whether Jews believe what I mentioned above and, if so, why?


Just as a last point: I've read a lot of the "my religion is the only true one - yours is false" kinds of postings and I'm on this sub-forum to learn more about Judaism. As far as I'm concerned, Source/God/Allah/Jehova/etc. is in us all as we're all equally loved :-)

Love and Light
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  #23  
Old 15-02-2012, 08:25 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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I have a lot to say on this...but it's also a set of topics much misunderstood and misinterpreted outside Judaism.

What most people know of this is from an outsider's perspective.
Though I think most would agree there are many paths to God and in the end, All is One :)

Yet without the Talmud and the midrash to provide context and layers of meaning to the terse text...which is often mistranslated and taken out of context to boot...it is nearly impossible to understand the Torah as Jews do.

Hence the surface statements of the OT God being wrathful, warmongering and such. Without going into detailed examples, at a very broad level it is about the divine contract between man and God and man and man...and that humans needed to grasp that there are consequences on every level to not only action but even to thought and intention.

I'd rather someone else start...and I'll add. I'll give some time to others first who can provide the substance, like RabbiO or Yamah, etc.

Peace & blessings,
7L
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and become themselves despite all opposition.

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  #24  
Old 15-02-2012, 09:55 PM
Yamah
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Anyone who believes the Torah portrays a warmongering God has never read the book in context. Remember that the time when the stories of Abraham through Moses through David took place was the age of warlords and warmongers.

Know that, at the time, kings and pharoahs ruled with iron fists. If they wanted to start a war because another king looked at him sideways the people served. Then you find in the Torah that a king is only allowed to make wars for God and any other wars can only be faught with volunteers or paid soldiers. You find that there is an obligation to allow your enemy to flee instead of besieging them. You have to offer them the chance to surrender and become vassals instead of slaughtering them. You're not allowed to rape women on the battlefield - but have to wait several months at least before laying with them in an honest relationship. Heck, you're not even allowed to destroy fruit trees to build siege engines.

The same goes for many other issues... 'oh no there's slavery in the Torah!' yeah, that's because there was slavery in the world... it doesn't say 'thou shalt have slaves' though, it says 'IF you have a slave, THEN you have to make sure he has a pillow and a blanket even if you don't'. 'oh no, there's multiple wives in the Torah!' Yeah... and they call the second wife 'suffering' and say that you better be able to care for them both (not the other way around). 'Oh noez there is a DEATH PENALTY!'... which requires 71 judges to preside over it with a majority rule where a unanimous vote is thrown out since whenever you get 71 Jews agreeing on ANYTHING you know something's fishy. Such a requirement was made, by the way, during a time where kings would have people executed for scuffing their shoes. And the list goes on.


Getting on to Forgiveness... it amazes me that people equate Judaism with war and Christianity with forgiveness. First of all, looking at the past 2000 years, who made all the wars and who did all the 'turning the other cheek'? Secondly, yeshu didn't present a single new idea in anything he said. All his ideas on forgiveness are straight from the Torah. Only I believe the originals were much better. A few brief examples:

Jeremiah 36:3 “That every man shall return from his way, and I will forgive him.”
1 Kings 8:33-34 “If they return to You, and confess Your Name, and pray...then You will hear in Heaven and forgive their sin.”
Malachi 3:7 “...Return to Me and I will return to you...”


Hope that starts to clear things up.
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  #25  
Old 16-02-2012, 12:02 AM
psychoslice psychoslice is offline
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warlords and warmongers may have bee there at the time, but where was this so called god to show them that they were wrong, no, he was right in there with them, fighting all the way.
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  #26  
Old 16-02-2012, 10:30 PM
UniverseofLove UniverseofLove is offline
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Thank you Yamah! You've cleared it up a lot for me. And thanks,7L, for trying

I remember a Robin of Sherwood episode in which a Jewish family of father, his adult daughter and two young daughter and son were discussing what to do with the Sheriff and Gisbourne. The adult daughter, whilst being a lovely person, said that "they must die" for they did to her people, but the father said "and I say, let them live. The most beautiful thing anyone can do, Sarah, is forgive." I found that so impressive and made me wonder what Jews were actually like. This was many years ago, but I've always wondered.

psychoslice, I'm not entirely sure what you were trying to say. Is it that the God they believe in was with them during the wars and didn't stop them? If so, whilst I don't agree that Source is like, I would have thought Jews believe in free will and that if people don't hear "God" tell them not to do something, it doesn't mean "He" supported it as a wrathful God.
If you meant something else, please rephrase

I know there is much left for me to understand about Judaism, but this is a good start.

Love and Light
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  #27  
Old 16-02-2012, 10:57 PM
psychoslice psychoslice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverseofLove
Thank you Yamah! You've cleared it up a lot for me. And thanks,7L, for trying

I remember a Robin of Sherwood episode in which a Jewish family of father, his adult daughter and two young daughter and son were discussing what to do with the Sheriff and Gisbourne. The adult daughter, whilst being a lovely person, said that "they must die" for they did to her people, but the father said "and I say, let them live. The most beautiful thing anyone can do, Sarah, is forgive." I found that so impressive and made me wonder what Jews were actually like. This was many years ago, but I've always wondered.

psychoslice, I'm not entirely sure what you were trying to say. Is it that the God they believe in was with them during the wars and didn't stop them? If so, whilst I don't agree that Source is like, I would have thought Jews believe in free will and that if people don't hear "God" tell them not to do something, it doesn't mean "He" supported it as a wrathful God.
If you meant something else, please rephrase

I know there is much left for me to understand about Judaism, but this is a good start.

Love and Light
This link will take you to "murder in the bible", it will show you throughout the bible how god killed so many in his name, its not a pretty sight.

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
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  #28  
Old 18-02-2012, 04:08 PM
Yamah
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Psychoslice: before you go and read things written by ignorant alarmists I would highly advise looking at source materials Pretty much all of the issues addressed on that website are addressed by the sages in the Gemara. I'll discuss them in general terms here and if you would like me to quote some specific examples then please ask and I will search for them.

1) Capital Punishment Crimes
Capital Punishment as a punitive measure was commonplace for eons. Prisons weren't a viable option back then because the people had a difficult enough time supporting themselves and couldn't be expected to support freeloading prisoners. Imprisonment is hardly a perfect solution nowadays either. The prison system has a very low success rate at reforming criminals, it's a burden on taxpayers and it's a weak deterent for crimes. The only reason for using the prison system over capital punishment is if a society is, for some reason, morally opposed to killing bad people - which is a very recent value.
That being said, the Torah proscribes 3 forms of punishment: (1) Death, (2) Fines, (3) Slavery. The most commonly proscribed punishment, Death, is only enacted if it can be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the person committed a crime knowing full well what he was doing and that he was in his right mind when doing so. Monetary fines were proscribed for material transgressions, such as theft, damages etc. Slavery was proscribed for those who cannot pay fines and for a few other miscellaneous crimes. To be clear, this is a limited slavery that lasts, at the very most, seven years. And it makes a lot more sense to indebt a criminal to a good family that can show a person the error of his ways rather than lock him up with other criminals to teach him how to be a better thief.

If you argue that some of the laws for which the death penalty are proscribed seem strange I would respond that just because you don't understand something doesn't make it wrong. The Sabbath is one of our most holy commandments and there isn't a question in any religious Jew's mind that breaking the Sabbath makes a person worthy of death. The assignment of the death penalty is more as a sign of the severity of the commandment than an actual punishment - such measures must have rarely, if ever, actually been taken.

2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons
As stated above, just because you don't understand something doesn't make it 'Stupid'. Also keep in mind that the stories in the Torah took place at a crucial time in the development of the nation of Israel and the people back then were, of necessity, held to a higher standard than the people of today. One of the reasons for this is that Kharmic law for Jews runs through the nation as a whole - when one Jew sins all the other Jews are affected. This special connection also runs forward through time - when one person sins all future generations are affected. The pain and suffering of the past 2000 years was an indirect result of the sins of our forefathers and it is every generation's responsibility to not add to the burden and try to fix up what we can. Knowing this, things may become more clear

3) Murdering Children
This whole section is threats and prophecies save one - the murder of the first borns of Egypt. And that one happened after 9 other plagues.

and 4) Miscellaneous Murders.
Yayaya... see above. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it wrong.
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  #29  
Old 18-02-2012, 05:12 PM
Morpheus Morpheus is offline
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Quote:
You can't take the Jew out of Jesus though history has certainly tried.

Well not History, Luminaries, rather history testifies of the ego, (devil and dragon), of mankind trying to do so.
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Eternity does not start with death.
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  #30  
Old 18-02-2012, 05:30 PM
Morpheus Morpheus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus27
No, it's a Catholic doctrine that Mary was born without the taint of original sin.

Keyword, "Catholic", and some related the doctrine to the pagan, "Queen of Heaven" teachings prevalent in ancient times.
You can Google that.

We should come to an understanding by now... in these last days.

According to the illustration of, "The Matrix" by the Wachowskis, as well as physics revelations, there is a greater reality apart from the, "Construct", of Space/Time. Eternity.

Sin is to be equated with this evolved organic, in illusory space/time, and this physical situation in which we find ourselves, with respect to a, "Fall".

I am aware that the Jews certainly accept the events in Genesis, regarding this. Speaking of the non secular Jews.
Why would someone state that, "original sin", is not accepted?

Death and decay, (essentially Time), began, we are told in the scriptures, at,
"The Fall".

Ego, involved with the "Survival Instinct", of this organic and, evolved physical aspect, is all about sin, and, involving a, "Fall" ...

One should be asking, today, in regard to this, "A fall from what?"

"They who are wise shall shine like the lights of the firmament, and they who bring many to righteousness, as the stars for ever and ever."
Daniel 12:3.
Old Testament, or, "Torah".

Stars represent both angels and people alike, througout the Scriptures.
Old testament, and new.


Perspective ~> http://www.angelsghosts.com/angels_what_are_they.html
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"I believe there are two sides to the phenomena known as death. This side where we live, and the other side, where we shall continue to live.
Eternity does not start with death.
We are in eternity now." - Norman Vincent Peale

"There is no place in this new kind of physics for both the field and matter, for the field is the only reality." - A. Einstein
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