Dogen and his question

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

Apparently the beginning of Dogen's quest for "answers" was the Mahayana teaching of Original Enlightenment. Such being so, he asked why the masters of old still practiced - or in fact why they practiced at all. It was a good question and certainly drove Dogen forward, his hair on fire!

There is a zen story of a zen master who was waving a fan. He was approached by a monk who asked him why he was waving his fan when the wind was ever present and permeates everywhere. The master replied that the monk only knew that the wind was ever present but not that it permeates everywhere. The monk asked:- "How does wind permeate everywhere?" and the master simply continued to wave his fan. At this the monk bowed deeply.

Maybe we all have our questions, the one that gets us going, but Dogen's was pretty fundamental. As I see it it involves the scope of effort in relation to grace and a lot of other things.

Many commentators suggest that Dogen sought his own "time and place" (and also path) as we all must do. Some simply accept the time and place they have been dealt, others are not satisfied with this.

“Therefore, if there are fish that would swim or birds that would fly only after investigating the entire ocean or sky, they would find neither path nor place.”

[Still_Waters]

There is a somewhat related story in the Zen classics from the Tang Dynasty. A flag was waving in the wind and two monks were debating whether the flag was moving or the wind was moving.

They asked the master to resolve this issue for them to determine who was "right".

The master simply stated that it is the mind that moves.

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

There is a somewhat related story in the Zen classics from the Tang Dynasty. A flag was waving in the wind and two monks were debating whether the flag was moving or the wind was moving.

They asked the master to resolve this issue for them to determine who was "right".

The master simply stated that it is the mind that moves.

It was that story being mentioned on another thread (Duality in Relation to Trinity) that started my own gear cogs grinding.



Then that story morphed into the episode of the flying ducks which ended in yet another monk getting his nose twisted by his master! When the master asked where some wild ducks had gone the novice said the ducks had flown away. Twisting the poor guys nose the master said:- "When have they ever flown away?" Looking up this story on the net was quite interesting. I found a podcast that spoke about it. Various views were expressed showing just how a simple story can be understood in more than one way. One observation was that as far as the ducks were concerned they might well have been going somewhere rather than "flying away". We all have a perspective, even ducks.

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

There is a zen story of a zen master who was waving a fan.

Oh very nice zen story there. Never heard that one before. To me, it is about a conceptual view. It's not everywhere is it. It is ours and ours alone. It is not "out there" as it is a mind/ego produced filter we experience through. It is in here. Ever present...yes! Waving that fan, staying aware and present. Transcending ego or the always present, (but not always effective) conceptual filter. Beautiful metaphors to me.

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

We all have a perspective, even ducks.

These are so great. We can be without a concept based interpretation or perspective. The ducks are always where they are. Neither going away or going towards, being here now with their wings moving. Have we ever moved? Depends what we mean by me.

The body may be moving, but we are standing still. Always present. Not moving one inch! Always right here in the now.

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

These are so great. We can be without a concept based interpretation or perspective. The ducks are always where they are. Neither going away or going towards, being here now with their wings moving. Have we ever moved? Depends what we mean by me.

The body may be moving, but we are standing still. Always present. Not moving one inch! Always right here in the now.

Looking up the story I googled around and found this:-

http://secularbuddhism.com/134-emotional-enlightenment/

I found it interesting.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 3 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice

Various views were expressed showing just how a simple story can be understood in more than one way.

First of all, I agree completely with your point that "a simple story can be understood in more than one way". Zen Buddhist stories in particular are often understood differently by different people.

That reminded me of a time when some one brought up the subject of the Greek mythical stories with my teacher and she responded that even those stories have "occult" (hidden) meanings if one studies them carefully. When I questioned that position, my teacher gave me an assignment for the week .... pick a Greek myth and report back the following week on the occult meaning.

I picked the Greek myth about Theseus, the Minataur, the Labyrinth, and Ariadne's thread. I meditated on it throughout the week and I came up with what I thought was a very plausible "occult" meaning for the myth. As I presented it to the assembly, I was pleased (EGO ) to see approving glances and signs from virtually everyone. When I finished, I asked my teacher if that was a "correct" interpretation. I was obviously fishing for compliments (EGO ).She smiled and responded to me with four simple words: "That's one possible interpretation". She did not feed my ego.

There can indeed be many different understandings of a story and a wise storyteller can create stories that can be interpreted on many levels beyond the obvious.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 5 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by AbodhiSky

The ducks are always where they are. Neither going away or going towards, being here now with their wings moving.

Nice concise interpretation of the Zen Koan.

[The Cobbler's Apprentice]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 5 EXCERPT:



Nice concise interpretation of the Zen Koan.

There was a guy in a Terry Pratchett novel who either knew where he was or where he was going but never both at the same time.



(The ducks had nothing on that guy)

where you are going or where you have been are imagination. where you are is the only actual reality. not to say thought and imagination stuff is not a reality, it's just a conceptual reality, mind based, thought based and not present in the now to the 5 senses

zen is to be here now without the attention on the conceptual realities, the thought or mind based ones, to be fully present with what is, not with what one imagines or produces as thought or ideas