What is non duality?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The paradox is that non-duality cannot recognise non-duality, so recognition of non-duality
requires a state of duality.
That which is everywhere cannot perceive itself.
It can only be perceived by that which is somewhere.

Hahahahahahaha, Bingo.
Or as Meher Baba put it, paraphrased and shortened from memory --
God is Love. And love must love.
Since He is the Only One ---there is no one for Him to love but Himself.
So as the Lover He imagines a Beloved to love.

(Us)

[Matty]

Thank's everyone for helping me on the search to understand non-duality.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Simply - there was never, is never and won't be ever 2 of anything.
There is Only One, m'dear sis.
We appear to be separate. We appear to be many.
We seem to have individualized souls. But, nope.
We are still all within or part of or extensions of The One.
Have I experienced it directly, up-close and personal rather then read about it?
Oh yeah. Mind blowing, jaw dropping experience, I must say!

There is not two - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSuGD0fqotw

And The One only exists in relation to the many - so there is the understanding. The One is both One and many.

Originally Posted by Matty

If that's your philosophy in Life, cool beans.

For me my Philosophy is just to attempt to understand something, instead of acting like I know something.

Too or To? Ehh I just use to...Too makes me think of Tootsie rolls then I forgot to learn which one is used properly :(

Sometimes I just like watching threads because often it becomes full of character rather than Spirituality. That's not a judgement it's an observation I enjoy watching play out.

I think the gist of non-duality seems to be the reconciliation of opposites such as light and dark, love and hate being the 'classics'. Spiritual vs human. Often it's binary thinking because one of them is sent to the trashcan so there's little reconciliation between the two. It becomes one-dimensional Spirituality and most of the time self-defeating, trying to argue the non-existence of something that you've acknowledged the existence of is not Right Thinking.

Is that a Tootsie Roll or a roll from Toostsie? Asking for a friend.

Originally Posted by Matty

I think the belief of Duality is very good and important. And the philosophical idea's of non-duality as well.

I think the belief is very limiting because for the most part people tend to create their beliefs and when the cognitive dissonance kicks in so does the Spiritual 'fight or flight' response kicks in. Few seem to want to understand what creates duality and few seem to want to expand their consciousness past it. There are things both 'above and below' duality that make sense of everything.

Non-duality is the bonkers that acknowledges the existence of duality then argues that it doesn't exist. Duality is binary thinking - 'this' vs 'that'. Non-duality is a binary thinking attempt to transcend binary thinking by using binary thinking - duality vs non-duality. The non-duality argument seems to choc-a-bloc with duality. It's all very one-dimensional.

It would be interesting here to include some psychology because the Jungian model of the self resolving the paradox between the conscious and conscious to create/expand consciousness explains it all very well. Unfortunately duality rears its ugly head because psychology has no place in Spirituality because many Spiritual people don't understand how well the ancients of the Indus Valley knew about psychology.

Then again, the Triplex Unity model that the pre-Taoist alchemists resolves the paradox of duality vs non-duality - or any other 'this' vs 'that' in a nicely five-dimensional way. It's the undifferentiated consciousness of the self rather than the differentiated consciousness of the ego - which is the 'source' of duality, both Spiritually and psychologically.

"The world, indeed, is like a heat haze.
Things have no form in themselves"
The Tao Te Ching
Mary English translation.

B it we make a thing of duality and non-duality.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Matty

I can understand and accept if some people have an idea or belief in something such as non-duality or different religious beliefs...to each their own.

But what you stated only express's a conviction of a belief and accepting that as a way of life. Without actually expressing the ideology behind the conviction of said belief.
An example: What is Judaism? It's just a convection that I follow in Life in something I believe in.
That's cool, but I still have no clue what Judaism is though.

If u feel its a set of religious beliefs , that may historically be true . But scientifically we are non-dual many times . Common case being in sleep . In sleep though person is breathing and is alive ,he/she does not remember anything in this world while in sleep and is one with universe relishing the refreshing blissful experience of sleep. This is quite common-place experience and nothing extra-ordinary about it.The people with belief in non-duality try to practice day to day common-place reality with more intensity at more granular level while in action in awake status. In pursuit of these efforts , lot of humane qualities develop in the seeker.

Non-duality is not denial of duality but it is recognition and appreciation of non-duality in seemingly apparent duality situations.

As regards understanding ideology of non-duality , here JASG/imathat have explained in quite better terms and also this sub-forum is full of lot of discussion hereon.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The One is both One and many.

Yup. :)
The Paradox with a capital P ...like, agony is also ecstasy...crazy world!!
Death is the doorway to adventure! Huh?
Nothing is what it seems in this place.

PS ---Matty, if you wanna understand this non duality stuff ...get into quantum physics more. Don't ask us bozos.
My thought is you think a chair is really a chair, still, yeah? Nope.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

And The One only exists in relation to the many - so there is the understanding. The One is both One and many.

It's the exact opposite. The non-dual is intrinsic existence and the dual is extrinsic existence. Intrinsic existence always Is whether manifest or not. Extrinsic existence only is when manifest. The many only exist because of the One but the One has no such dependence on the many.

Clay exists whether or not pottery exists. Pottery cannot exist without clay. The ocean exists whether or not waves exist. Waves cannot exist without the ocean.

Your assertion is only true from the perspective of mind, of the manifest.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Matty

Define form?
Because form it's self is ever-changing the form of nature, the form of though, the form of life. Just as Evolution teaches us that form can be limitless.

Indeed, form is ever-changing. There may be a limitless number of forms but no form is limitless. That which is limitless cannot change. That which changes is not limitless.

Peace

[Matty]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Is that a Tootsie Roll or a roll from Toostsie? Asking for a friend.

I think the belief is very limiting because for the most part people tend to create their beliefs and when the cognitive dissonance kicks in so does the Spiritual 'fight or flight' response kicks in. Few seem to want to understand what creates duality and few seem to want to expand their consciousness past it. There are things both 'above and below' duality that make sense of everything.

Non-duality is the bonkers that acknowledges the existence of duality then argues that it doesn't exist. Duality is binary thinking - 'this' vs 'that'. Non-duality is a binary thinking attempt to transcend binary thinking by using binary thinking - duality vs non-duality. The non-duality argument seems to choc-a-bloc with duality. It's all very one-dimensional.

It would be interesting here to include some psychology because the Jungian model of the self resolving the paradox between the conscious and conscious to create/expand consciousness explains it all very well. Unfortunately duality rears its ugly head because psychology has no place in Spirituality because many Spiritual people don't understand how well the ancients of the Indus Valley knew about psychology.

Then again, the Triplex Unity model that the pre-Taoist alchemists resolves the paradox of duality vs non-duality - or any other 'this' vs 'that' in a nicely five-dimensional way. It's the undifferentiated consciousness of the self rather than the differentiated consciousness of the ego - which is the 'source' of duality, both Spiritually and psychologically.

For me it's an owl, a tree, a Tootsie roll of thoughts. All in all that's Philosophy, inspire ourselves to think for ourselves. As opposed to be just told what to think or believe.
You state that it's bonkers to ponder on non-duality because it acknowledge's duality. While finding it amusing to watch. And yet try to imply that your non judgmental and reinforce that idea by saying that it's wrong thinking or not right thinking.
That's like a double negative of judgement. Since you like to speak of Psychology, Your saying that only your way of thinking is right and anyone who doesn't think like you is wrong. To the point that you find it amusing to watch as an attempt to put them down.
What Psychology term would be applied to such a person?

Me personally if you don't like philosophical discussion. That's completely fine and I mean that with complete non judgment. People have the right to cognitively think the way want.
After all that is why Carl Jung spent so much time and embarked deeper into the heart of Psychology. Because Freud would try to insult and label Jung psychotic because the way he thought. ( Mostly out of jealousy) Jung rejected Freud's labels, eventually wrote a book that proved Freud label to be nothing more than a judgemental notion from a point of view from not understanding.

Spirituality and Psychology is meant to coincide. Psychology of today isn't the same Psychology of before. Psychology today is in the name of science and science should also coincide with spirituality. Now science disowned and tries to disprove spiritually.
Mind, body, and soul should be the spiritual way. All these chain of events has also changed the way spiritually is treated.
All the greats Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, etc etc all spoke of the mind, body and soul. I learned more about "psychology" way before I ever touched a psychology book. I still don't like how psychology is today.

I think paradox seems to be used a tad to lighly so far, but paradox just as so many other words has created to much of a subjective nature.
I am glad you decided join the thread instead of watching from the bench.

[Matty]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

If u feel its a set of religious beliefs , that may historically be true . But scientifically we are non-dual many times . Common case being in sleep . In sleep though person is breathing and is alive ,he/she does not remember anything in this world while in sleep and is one with universe relishing the refreshing blissful experience of sleep. This is quite common-place experience and nothing extra-ordinary about it.The people with belief in non-duality try to practice day to day common-place reality with more intensity at more granular level while in action in awake status. In pursuit of these efforts , lot of humane qualities develop in the seeker.

Non-duality is not denial of duality but it is recognition and appreciation of non-duality in seemingly apparent duality situations.

As regards understanding ideology of non-duality , here JASG/imathat have explained in quite better terms and also this sub-forum is full of lot of discussion hereon.

I didn't say that it was a religious belief.
But if what your saying about sleep through your scientific belief is your conviction in life. Then thank you for expressing your belief.