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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 11-06-2021, 04:18 AM
Matty Matty is offline
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What is non duality?

I have been wondering what could non duality possibly be. Yet alone that there is some concept of non duality that there is a section devoted to it.
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2021, 08:38 AM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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Nonduality

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Originally Posted by Matty
I have been wondering what could non duality possibly be. Yet alone that there is some concept of non duality that there is a section devoted to it.
It's a way of life which recognizes while things look dual , it is also non-dual and lead the life with belief n conviction also in non duality.
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2021, 07:31 PM
Matty Matty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
It's a way of life which recognizes while things look dual , it is also non-dual and lead the life with belief n conviction also in non duality.
I can understand and accept if some people have an idea or belief in something such as non-duality or different religious beliefs...to each their own.

But what you stated only express's a conviction of a belief and accepting that as a way of life. Without actually expressing the ideology behind the conviction of said belief.
An example: What is Judaism? It's just a convection that I follow in Life in something I believe in.
That's cool, but I still have no clue what Judaism is though.
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  #4  
Old 12-06-2021, 09:43 AM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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non-duality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I can understand and accept if some people have an idea or belief in something such as non-duality or different religious beliefs...to each their own.

But what you stated only express's a conviction of a belief and accepting that as a way of life. Without actually expressing the ideology behind the conviction of said belief.
An example: What is Judaism? It's just a convection that I follow in Life in something I believe in.
That's cool, but I still have no clue what Judaism is though.
If u feel its a set of religious beliefs , that may historically be true . But scientifically we are non-dual many times . Common case being in sleep . In sleep though person is breathing and is alive ,he/she does not remember anything in this world while in sleep and is one with universe relishing the refreshing blissful experience of sleep. This is quite common-place experience and nothing extra-ordinary about it.The people with belief in non-duality try to practice day to day common-place reality with more intensity at more granular level while in action in awake status. In pursuit of these efforts , lot of humane qualities develop in the seeker.

Non-duality is not denial of duality but it is recognition and appreciation of non-duality in seemingly apparent duality situations.

As regards understanding ideology of non-duality , here JASG/imathat have explained in quite better terms and also this sub-forum is full of lot of discussion hereon.
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  #5  
Old 13-06-2021, 04:45 AM
Matty Matty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
If u feel its a set of religious beliefs , that may historically be true . But scientifically we are non-dual many times . Common case being in sleep . In sleep though person is breathing and is alive ,he/she does not remember anything in this world while in sleep and is one with universe relishing the refreshing blissful experience of sleep. This is quite common-place experience and nothing extra-ordinary about it.The people with belief in non-duality try to practice day to day common-place reality with more intensity at more granular level while in action in awake status. In pursuit of these efforts , lot of humane qualities develop in the seeker.

Non-duality is not denial of duality but it is recognition and appreciation of non-duality in seemingly apparent duality situations.

As regards understanding ideology of non-duality , here JASG/imathat have explained in quite better terms and also this sub-forum is full of lot of discussion hereon.
I didn't say that it was a religious belief.
But if what your saying about sleep through your scientific belief is your conviction in life. Then thank you for expressing your belief.
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2021, 08:50 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Non-duality is great fun when you step back and watch a thread on it. It's people who are often too wrapped up in the Spirituality to realise that they're using duality to argue the existence of something they've already acknowledged the existence of.
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  #7  
Old 11-06-2021, 07:37 PM
Matty Matty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Non-duality is great fun when you step back and watch a thread on it. It's people who are often too wrapped up in the Spirituality to realise that they're using duality to argue the existence of something they've already acknowledged the existence of.
If that's your philosophy in Life, cool beans.

For me my Philosophy is just to attempt to understand something, instead of acting like I know something.

Too or To? Ehh I just use to...Too makes me think of Tootsie rolls then I forgot to learn which one is used properly :(
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  #8  
Old 12-06-2021, 09:15 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
If that's your philosophy in Life, cool beans.

For me my Philosophy is just to attempt to understand something, instead of acting like I know something.

Too or To? Ehh I just use to...Too makes me think of Tootsie rolls then I forgot to learn which one is used properly :(
Sometimes I just like watching threads because often it becomes full of character rather than Spirituality. That's not a judgement it's an observation I enjoy watching play out.

I think the gist of non-duality seems to be the reconciliation of opposites such as light and dark, love and hate being the 'classics'. Spiritual vs human. Often it's binary thinking because one of them is sent to the trashcan so there's little reconciliation between the two. It becomes one-dimensional Spirituality and most of the time self-defeating, trying to argue the non-existence of something that you've acknowledged the existence of is not Right Thinking.

Is that a Tootsie Roll or a roll from Toostsie? Asking for a friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I think the belief of Duality is very good and important. And the philosophical idea's of non-duality as well.
I think the belief is very limiting because for the most part people tend to create their beliefs and when the cognitive dissonance kicks in so does the Spiritual 'fight or flight' response kicks in. Few seem to want to understand what creates duality and few seem to want to expand their consciousness past it. There are things both 'above and below' duality that make sense of everything.

Non-duality is the bonkers that acknowledges the existence of duality then argues that it doesn't exist. Duality is binary thinking - 'this' vs 'that'. Non-duality is a binary thinking attempt to transcend binary thinking by using binary thinking - duality vs non-duality. The non-duality argument seems to choc-a-bloc with duality. It's all very one-dimensional.

It would be interesting here to include some psychology because the Jungian model of the self resolving the paradox between the conscious and conscious to create/expand consciousness explains it all very well. Unfortunately duality rears its ugly head because psychology has no place in Spirituality because many Spiritual people don't understand how well the ancients of the Indus Valley knew about psychology.

Then again, the Triplex Unity model that the pre-Taoist alchemists resolves the paradox of duality vs non-duality - or any other 'this' vs 'that' in a nicely five-dimensional way. It's the undifferentiated consciousness of the self rather than the differentiated consciousness of the ego - which is the 'source' of duality, both Spiritually and psychologically.

"The world, indeed, is like a heat haze.
Things have no form in themselves"
The Tao Te Ching
Mary English translation.

B it we make a thing of duality and non-duality.
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Last edited by Greenslade : 12-06-2021 at 10:14 AM.
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  #9  
Old 13-06-2021, 04:34 AM
Matty Matty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade

Is that a Tootsie Roll or a roll from Toostsie? Asking for a friend.

I think the belief is very limiting because for the most part people tend to create their beliefs and when the cognitive dissonance kicks in so does the Spiritual 'fight or flight' response kicks in. Few seem to want to understand what creates duality and few seem to want to expand their consciousness past it. There are things both 'above and below' duality that make sense of everything.

Non-duality is the bonkers that acknowledges the existence of duality then argues that it doesn't exist. Duality is binary thinking - 'this' vs 'that'. Non-duality is a binary thinking attempt to transcend binary thinking by using binary thinking - duality vs non-duality. The non-duality argument seems to choc-a-bloc with duality. It's all very one-dimensional.

It would be interesting here to include some psychology because the Jungian model of the self resolving the paradox between the conscious and conscious to create/expand consciousness explains it all very well. Unfortunately duality rears its ugly head because psychology has no place in Spirituality because many Spiritual people don't understand how well the ancients of the Indus Valley knew about psychology.

Then again, the Triplex Unity model that the pre-Taoist alchemists resolves the paradox of duality vs non-duality - or any other 'this' vs 'that' in a nicely five-dimensional way. It's the undifferentiated consciousness of the self rather than the differentiated consciousness of the ego - which is the 'source' of duality, both Spiritually and psychologically.

For me it's an owl, a tree, a Tootsie roll of thoughts. All in all that's Philosophy, inspire ourselves to think for ourselves. As opposed to be just told what to think or believe.
You state that it's bonkers to ponder on non-duality because it acknowledge's duality. While finding it amusing to watch. And yet try to imply that your non judgmental and reinforce that idea by saying that it's wrong thinking or not right thinking.
That's like a double negative of judgement. Since you like to speak of Psychology, Your saying that only your way of thinking is right and anyone who doesn't think like you is wrong. To the point that you find it amusing to watch as an attempt to put them down.
What Psychology term would be applied to such a person?

Me personally if you don't like philosophical discussion. That's completely fine and I mean that with complete non judgment. People have the right to cognitively think the way want.
After all that is why Carl Jung spent so much time and embarked deeper into the heart of Psychology. Because Freud would try to insult and label Jung psychotic because the way he thought. ( Mostly out of jealousy) Jung rejected Freud's labels, eventually wrote a book that proved Freud label to be nothing more than a judgemental notion from a point of view from not understanding.

Spirituality and Psychology is meant to coincide. Psychology of today isn't the same Psychology of before. Psychology today is in the name of science and science should also coincide with spirituality. Now science disowned and tries to disprove spiritually.
Mind, body, and soul should be the spiritual way. All these chain of events has also changed the way spiritually is treated.
All the greats Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, etc etc all spoke of the mind, body and soul. I learned more about "psychology" way before I ever touched a psychology book. I still don't like how psychology is today.

I think paradox seems to be used a tad to lighly so far, but paradox just as so many other words has created to much of a subjective nature.
I am glad you decided join the thread instead of watching from the bench.
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  #10  
Old 13-06-2021, 07:10 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
You state that it's bonkers to ponder on non-duality because it acknowledges duality. While finding it amusing to watch. And yet try to imply that your non judgmental and reinforce that idea by saying that it's wrong thinking or not right thinking.
That's like a double negative of judgement. Since you like to speak of Psychology, Your saying that only your way of thinking is right and anyone who doesn't think like you is wrong. To the point that you find it amusing to watch as an attempt to put them down.
What Psychology term would be applied to such a person?
It is amusing sometimes, especially in the context that one of the mainstays of Spirituality is awareness. If people were a bit more aware of what they were saying then maybe we wouldn't have a non-Duality discussion - maybe we'd be talking about beyond Duality instead.

What I said was that the case for non-duality doesn't make sense and to me it's neither common sense nor logic. If you think that's judgement then be my guest, but that's your perceptions and your choice. If you actually think about the term 'non-Duality' you'll understand what I'm trying to say - what's being said there is that the duality that you acknowledge the existence of doesn't exist. How is that sensible? The case for non-existence is nonsense.

By using the word you acknowledge that it exists and most of the arguments against duality are dualistic themselves. How is that Right Thinking? I enjoy the philosophical discussion but I need it to make sense, I can't make sense of a dualistic non-duality discussion. If you can see reason and logic in that, be my guest because I'd really enjoy reading it. To me, it's bonkers and maybe what we need to do is look to the thinking instead of reinforcing the personal dogma/narratives.

Perhaps if we were more aware of what was actually being discussed? Because the discussion of Duality is not about Duality and the discussion of non-Duality is not about non-Duality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Spirituality and Psychology is meant to coincide. Psychology of today isn't the same Psychology of before. Psychology today is in the name of science and science should also coincide with spirituality. Now science disowned and tries to disprove spiritually.
Science isn't interested in disproving Spirituality and many scientists are either Spiritual or religious. Jung was a scholar of Advaita Vedanta and that's where he took his model of both the self and the ego from. He described the self as "The God inside" because the self was the resolution of the paradox between the conscious and the unconscious. Einstein, as with many others, believed in God and still believe in God. Scientists can live with religion/Spirituality but few Spiritual people can live with science. Max Planck used science to say that God must exist and hinted that the Universal Field of quantum theory is God - and if you look at both the science and the religion they're not so far apart after all.

I'm sure most scientists have better things to do than try to debunk Spirituality. Spirituality is built on the framework of psychology and they're two very different areas of understanding. Beliefs can be anything anyone wants them to be and are the end result of the processing of the unconscious - which is largely what you are.

Science moves forwards when concepts are debunked, when people challenge the established trains of thought. That's what Jung did but Jung didn't sit on his beliefs, he took the scientific approach to understanding. How many Spiritual people do the same? How many are willing enough to put their beliefs aside in the light of new information/thinking?

How many are going to talk about understanding beyond both Duality and not-Duality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Mind, body, and soul should be the spiritual way. All these chain of events has also changed the way spiritually is treated.
Spirituality is the "What?" and psychology is the "How?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
All the greats Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, etc etc all spoke of the mind, body and soul. I learned more about "psychology" way before I ever touched a psychology book. I still don't like how psychology is today.
They all had a firm grasp of what we in the West call psychology. The Right Thinking of the Eightfold Path is mostly constructive cognitive behaviour, for instance. The religion/philosophy of the Indus Valley went into what we call psychology in great detail. If you want to understand the ego from a Spiritual perspective then Ahamkara is the place to go, and what you'll find there is what we call psycho9logy - especially when you delve into Chitta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I think paradox seems to be used a tad to lighly so far, but paradox just as so many other words has created to much of a subjective nature.
I am glad you decided join the thread instead of watching from the bench.
You can use the word 'dichotomy' if you like, I've seen that thrown about in similar threads. Duality and paradox are pretty much the same thing, it's 'this' vs 'that' but it's not the way it works, 'this' vs 'that' gives us something else again. So Spirituality and psychology are a duality/paradox but putting them both together makes for a very different Spirituality. Maybe that's why we are so far apart from Buddha, Jesus and so many others - maybe it's because they embraced their understanding of psychology and used it to their benefit and didn't ignore it and let it bite them on the backside.

So putting psychology and Spirituality together, Duality is the differentiated conscious of the ego while so-called non-Duality is the undifferentiated conscious of the self - the self has solved the paradox of conscious vs unconscious to 'create' consciousness. There is no inherent Duality in the discussion of Spirituality and psychology until one is created out of.... what?
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