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  #11  
Old 25-04-2021, 03:11 PM
ameliorate ameliorate is offline
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Originally Posted by zastrakoza
Perhaps I am.

I'm genuinely curious what you and others believe self-love to be. I don't see how this definition differs from an ego based one, or how it incorporates sacrifice as a basic tenet of love. We will not overcome our vices by affirming our virtues, at least, I haven't seen it happening.

There is a bifurcation of the self here. Vices and virtues. It seems that self love must incorporate loving ourselves in all of our behaviors, else we are not loving ourselves, but fragmenting ourselves. How can we not love part of ourselves and still claim to love ourselves?

In myself, I find fragmentation, which I am in practice to observe without judgment. That alone I find challenging. So I cannot claim to love myself.

It would be helpful if you could share a deeper meaning of self love, and any insight on complete integration.

Z
Thank you for your honest post and I respect your intelligence and enquiry into this.

You point out that the definition of self love is ego based. How could it be otherwise since it refers to self/ego? This is, of course, to be distinguished from our true essence i.e. our soul/spirit. The mention of sacrifice, i.e. 'not sacrificing your own well being to please others' grates a little with me but I think it is meant to address where someone is being undermined/overridden. Of course, with low self esteem, pleasing others is very common!

It's true that our vices will not be overcome by affirming our virtues. I mentioned this in the context of not being overwhelmed with prevalent negative self thoughts. Addressing our vices is key but requires a certain strength in being able to tackle them; also motivation, focus and maybe help/support from others (possibly, professional help where need be.)

I will briefly mention my experience of self esteem. It was originally low (which is very common) e.g. largely the outcome of my father beating me up. I went through a brief self destructive phase when I left home but, luckily, fell in with some musical friends. I discovered I had an aptitude for songwriting (like them) and so my confidence grew along with my self worth.

My self esteem continued to grow (i.e. ability to like then love myself) by becoming popular socially and exploring my creative talent e.g. performing my songs to audiences, later going on to do stand up comedy, free verse poetry, dabbling in water colours; more recently writing (with my local writing group) and upcycling. I hope this doesn't look like boasting since I am well aware I still have vices but they are less prevalent and more easily held in check.

Speaking spiritually, the state (or otherwise) of self love is not related to our ability to give/self sacrifice. Catholics excel in self sacrifice! I enjoy giving rather than receiving and have done extensive voluntary work over the years. Being of service to others is important and nourishes our soul.

At the other end of the self love spectrum (and to be avoided, I feel) is excessive self-love/self importance/ego centred selfishness. No seriously spiritually focused person would tolerate this vice since it eclipses the ability of our soul/spirit to shine through. (Not for nothing to ancient spiritual teachings speak of diminishing the ego!)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by asking about 'complete integration'. Can you better explain please?

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  #12  
Old 26-04-2021, 02:06 AM
zastrakoza zastrakoza is offline
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Originally Posted by ameliorate
Thank you for your honest post and I respect your intelligence and enquiry into this.

You point out that the definition of self love is ego based. How could it be otherwise since it refers to self/ego?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by asking about 'complete integration'. Can you better explain please?


I'm so pleased you have overcome the negative influences of your childhood! It is very difficult to do. But I can't help but think that the kind of self love we are speaking of cannot come from the ego. Obviously the ego loves itself. But when we begin to know where we really came from and who we really are, we come into brief conflict with our ego-based selves. Mostly because our ego-based selves are telling us that we do love ourselves, punctuated by many examples. And that I do not believe, because...look at everyone's behavior! It is evident they do not.

The completely integrated person has brought all subtle bodies into alignment. She has no vices, nor does she judge herself or others. She walks on a higher plane, and notices no offenses. She is the personification of unconditional love. I used to believe this was impossible, but now I know it is not. BUT it does require sacrifice (if you wish to see it as that). It is truly no sacrifice to love when love is what you are. In being love, you have no personal ambitions or goals. You simply take the path given, overcome the challenges given, and give all you have to give. The integrated person pours out her life in love.

To become this, there can be no hidden ripples of pain, regret or unforgiveness in the past, present or future. It must all be re-articulated or transmuted into love. If there is karma from past lifetimes, it must be transmuted.

I hope this makes sense. It is kind of difficult to explain.

Z
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  #13  
Old 26-04-2021, 01:51 PM
ameliorate ameliorate is offline
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Originally Posted by zastrakoza
I'm so pleased you have overcome the negative influences of your childhood! It is very difficult to do. But I can't help but think that the kind of self love we are speaking of cannot come from the ego. Obviously the ego loves itself. But when we begin to know where we really came from and who we really are, we come into brief conflict with our ego-based selves. Mostly because our ego-based selves are telling us that we do love ourselves, punctuated by many examples. And that I do not believe, because...look at everyone's behavior! It is evident they do not.

The completely integrated person has brought all subtle bodies into alignment. She has no vices, nor does she judge herself or others. She walks on a higher plane, and notices no offenses. She is the personification of unconditional love. I used to believe this was impossible, but now I know it is not. BUT it does require sacrifice (if you wish to see it as that). It is truly no sacrifice to love when love is what you are. In being love, you have no personal ambitions or goals. You simply take the path given, overcome the challenges given, and give all you have to give. The integrated person pours out her life in love.

To become this, there can be no hidden ripples of pain, regret or unforgiveness in the past, present or future. It must all be re-articulated or transmuted into love. If there is karma from past lifetimes, it must be transmuted.

I hope this makes sense. It is kind of difficult to explain.

Z
Ah I better understand how you are using the term self love now (did Honza mean this too I wonder?)

A completely integrated person, as you describe it, seems an ideal/a concept - a goal to strive for rather than a reality that I have ever seen anyone obtain. Have you? Whilst becoming non judgemental is achievable, to expect humans to be totally without vices is unrealistic.

You don't need to be a completely integrated person to be imbued with love and to radiate it out to others! That comes naturally when someone is in love but can also be cultivated via spiritual development too. Perhaps you are indicating a more stabilised, ongoing form of love e.g. if we are aligned with our higher self.



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  #14  
Old 26-04-2021, 08:10 PM
zastrakoza zastrakoza is offline
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Originally Posted by ameliorate
Ah I better understand how you are using the term self love now (did Honza mean this too I wonder?)

A completely integrated person, as you describe it, seems an ideal/a concept - a goal to strive for rather than a reality that I have ever seen anyone obtain. Have you? Whilst becoming non judgemental is achievable, to expect humans to be totally without vices is unrealistic.

You don't need to be a completely integrated person to be imbued with love and to radiate it out to others!

It doesn't seem possible to radiate as love when there is lack of self love. But maybe you are right that even a partially blocked channel radiates some. I believe Honza is teaching via the socratic method, which is to ask questions and then stand down.

Aren't all thoughts only ideas? An ideal is an idea set up on a pedestal, is it not? A "vice" is only an idea. If we are without judgment, then how can a vice exist? Or any offense? I believe all things are possible, and even since yesterday, I have changed. We cannot strive for that we do not believe to realistic.

I believe perfection is a manifestation of a state of being. As I work through this love challenge, releasing all that I thought was unworthy in myself, I find myself releasing only bad ideas. lol. Honza is probably already there!
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Old 26-04-2021, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by zastrakoza
It doesn't seem possible to radiate as love when there is lack of self love. But maybe you are right that even a partially blocked channel radiates some. I believe Honza is teaching via the socratic method, which is to ask questions and then stand down.

Aren't all thoughts only ideas? An ideal is an idea set up on a pedestal, is it not? A "vice" is only an idea. If we are without judgment, then how can a vice exist? Or any offense? I believe all things are possible, and even since yesterday, I have changed. We cannot strive for that we do not believe to realistic.

I believe perfection is a manifestation of a state of being. As I work through this love challenge, releasing all that I thought was unworthy in myself, I find myself releasing only bad ideas. lol. Honza is probably already there!
Ah so we are just discussing theories rather than practical actualities? I didn't realise. I'm a realistic optimist so prefer dealing with actual possibilities rather than debating the definition of an idealistic concept.

We can strive to be without judgement of others (although I think discernment is desirable) and still have vices. It's not an either/or, black and white situation is it?

I find your statement 'We cannot strive for that we do not believe to realistic' perplexing since a completely integrated person - by your definition (where does that come from I wonder?) is idealistic.

My direction is also focusing on the heart. I strive to be less judgemental, more open and softer.

I forgot to add (to my last post) in reply to you saying that self love is evident in others - 'look at everyone's behaviour!' Self-absorption, self-centredness is not the same thing as self love. It's possible to be totally wrapped up in yourself and your issues/problems hence why low self esteem (the absence of self love) is rife.
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  #16  
Old 27-04-2021, 06:21 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honza
The trouble is that everybody thinks that 'I' is the problem.

Happy self acceptance and self love is not the problem. The problem is self hatred and self rejection.

As per eastern philosophy, there is both the false self and true Self.

The false self is the ego created by identification with the false and temporary, while the true Self is awareness or pure consciousness that is revealed in the present moment.


Man has no permanent and unchangeable I. Every thought, every mood, every desire, every sensation, says "I". ~ George Gurdjieff



It is the false self that Gurdjieff mentions here, which one identifies with every desire, sensation, mood and emotion passing by. Obviously something that comes and goes is not permanent and cannot compose the true Self.

So what is the true Self ! The true Self is but awareness revealed in the present moment, or pure consciousness free of intense desires in the form of cravings and aversions. It is these strong desires in the form of cravings and aversions that provoke incessant and compulsive thinking and emoting, and put the mind in past or future missing present moment awareness.

In extreme cases, such compulsive thinking and emoting can result in great suffering and misery, along with delusion and psychosis. Such mental and physical suffering itself indicates something unnatural and unhealthy.


The Self, our Being, is awareness. - Sri Muruganar

It is the true Self that George Gurdjieff and Ramana Maharshi emphasized...



Man’s search for happiness is an unconscious search for his true Self. The true Self is imperishable; therefore when a man finds it, he finds a happiness which does not come to an end. - Ramana Maharshi


Remember your Self always and everywhere. ~ George Gurdjieff


By being anchored in the Self, one can remain stable, equanimous and safe in the many storms and typhoons that come as trials and tribulations in this chaotic world.
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When even one virtue becomes our nature, the mind becomes clean and tranquil. Then there is no need to practice meditation; we will automatically be meditating always. ~ Swami Satchidananda

Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost.~ Buddha AN 10.1

If you do right, irrespective of what the other does, it will slow down the (turbulent) mind. ~ Rajini Menon
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  #17  
Old 27-04-2021, 05:48 PM
zastrakoza zastrakoza is offline
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Originally Posted by ameliorate
Ah so we are just discussing theories rather than practical actualities? I didn't realise. I'm a realistic optimist so prefer dealing with actual possibilities rather than debating the definition of an idealistic concept.

We can strive to be without judgement of others (although I think discernment is desirable) and still have vices. It's not an either/or, black and white situation is it?

I find your statement 'We cannot strive for that we do not believe to realistic' perplexing since a completely integrated person - by your definition (where does that come from I wonder?) is idealistic.

My direction is also focusing on the heart. I strive to be less judgemental, more open and softer.

I forgot to add (to my last post) in reply to you saying that self love is evident in others - 'look at everyone's behaviour!' Self-absorption, self-centredness is not the same thing as self love. It's possible to be totally wrapped up in yourself and your issues/problems hence why low self esteem (the absence of self love) is rife.

I apologize for my poor communication skills. Your gentle words are teaching me how much work I have yet to do to be able to communicate effectively. It does surprise me that I communicate the exact opposite of what I am trying to say!

I am saying the integrated person is entirely realistic. My definition is not idealistic at all. Am I correct in understanding that to you idealistic means not real or not possible? Why would anyone strive to do the impossible? We are in total agreement on pragmatism. I am in my physical body and integrating all the physical and non physical aspects of myself in order to manifest fully as I am. This is not a theoretical exercise and I am deadly intent on expressing as completely integrated. I am reaching out for help and support in this endeavor and also to learn as much as possible from those ahead of me in this transformation. Another way of expressing completely integrated may be fully aligned. I believe this term may be more common, although I am not sure.

As to vices and judgments, I do not say that humans can't find themselves somewhere along the path of incompleteness, which would be a gray area or an area of learning. But I do believe that if we are not judging ourselves or others, then there are no vices. If we are not in judgment of ourselves, we have no vices. Anything that can be considered a vice is only born out of condemnation. If there is no judgment, then there is nothing that could be considered other than right. Love does not condemn and therefore sees no wrong. This is not theoretical. This is real.

We are using the word 'vice' as a generic representative of anything we do not love. So, if I do not love the shape of my nose, if I see it as anything less than it should be, that would be a judgment and in this case a vice. (now I am using this as an example only because I actually like my nose. It is the same one I see on my Dad's face, which seems appropriate to me.)

And in this thread we are discussing self love, not so much the love of others. The issue of self love is in learning to not judge the self. I see no ego in self love, because the ego is not the self. Ego 'loves' the self is a way of saying that the ego does not know love. It only knows itself. It promotes illusion. If we do not see ourselves as divinely perfect, then we are as I am...in training to discover those ideas that are out of alignment with perfection, and transmute them into love. Eventually we are all completely integrated into love. We express as love and we do not experience judgment.

You have a beautiful heart. I love its gentleness. That is very evident and I can feel its warmth and compassion. It seems we are more in agreement than not on the level of heart frequency and it is only this inadequate language I struggle with. Sorry for the many words! I am only trying to make myself better understood. This exchange has been a pleasure and a learning opportunity for me. Thank you.
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Old 27-04-2021, 06:36 PM
ameliorate ameliorate is offline
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Originally Posted by zastrakoza
I apologize for my poor communication skills. Your gentle words are teaching me how much work I have yet to do to be able to communicate effectively. It does surprise me that I communicate the exact opposite of what I am trying to say!

I am saying the integrated person is entirely realistic. My definition is not idealistic at all. Am I correct in understanding that to you idealistic means not real or not possible? Why would anyone strive to do the impossible? We are in total agreement on pragmatism. I am in my physical body and integrating all the physical and non physical aspects of myself in order to manifest fully as I am. This is not a theoretical exercise and I am deadly intent on expressing as completely integrated. I am reaching out for help and support in this endeavor and also to learn as much as possible from those ahead of me in this transformation. Another way of expressing completely integrated may be fully aligned. I believe this term may be more common, although I am not sure.

As to vices and judgments, I do not say that humans can't find themselves somewhere along the path of incompleteness, which would be a gray area or an area of learning. But I do believe that if we are not judging ourselves or others, then there are no vices. If we are not in judgment of ourselves, we have no vices. Anything that can be considered a vice is only born out of condemnation. If there is no judgment, then there is nothing that could be considered other than right. Love does not condemn and therefore sees no wrong. This is not theoretical. This is real.

We are using the word 'vice' as a generic representative of anything we do not love. So, if I do not love the shape of my nose, if I see it as anything less than it should be, that would be a judgment and in this case a vice. (now I am using this as an example only because I actually like my nose. It is the same one I see on my Dad's face, which seems appropriate to me.)

And in this thread we are discussing self love, not so much the love of others. The issue of self love is in learning to not judge the self. I see no ego in self love, because the ego is not the self. Ego 'loves' the self is a way of saying that the ego does not know love. It only knows itself. It promotes illusion. If we do not see ourselves as divinely perfect, then we are as I am...in training to discover those ideas that are out of alignment with perfection, and transmute them into love. Eventually we are all completely integrated into love. We express as love and we do not experience judgment.

You have a beautiful heart. I love its gentleness. That is very evident and I can feel its warmth and compassion. It seems we are more in agreement than not on the level of heart frequency and it is only this inadequate language I struggle with. Sorry for the many words! I am only trying to make myself better understood. This exchange has been a pleasure and a learning opportunity for me. Thank you.
Thank you for your helpful clarifications and compliments! I am 71 so it's been a long road to arrive at where I now am. I agree we share a certain resonance on the 'heart frequency' which is a joy to find!

Yes, you are right. To me idealistic = theoretically, i.e. not attainable but I see that my view of this may now need to be adjusted.

As previously mentioned, whereas we may be able to overcome judgement, discernment is still desirable I feel. We may not call what we have a vice, e.g. prone to being impatient but it exists as a trait anyway! An undesirable trait if we are on the road to personal growth and wish to reach our potential so needs to be acknowledged and 'worked on'.

As to being divinely perfect, well - I am a realistic optimist, i.e. prefer to see things as they are (wherever possible) but take a positive spin from this. So I acknowledge that I am 'in training' but closer than I was, say, a decade ago. That said, as previously mentioned, I have high self esteem (able mostly to love who I am as a person).

I hope Honza has found our interactions interesting and, if not, that it is not off track at least!

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